Whitney out with pulled groin

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Postby edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:58 pm

Draftnik wrote:Letang is pointless his last 9 games with a -4 rating:

http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8471724&tab=gbgt

I watched Letang play ~ 15 games at the WJC and that is where it was obvious he was a strong 2 way Dman and wasn't an offensive specialist despite the LGP.com groupthink, but just as obvious was his not being a Bobby Orr offensive clone. I didn't watch him play more than a few games in the QMJHL, but I think the anointment of him as some NHL point producing machine is very premature.

He doesn't move the puck very quickly at this level. He seems to hold it for a few extra seconds.

He also only has 5 ES points in 47 games. His ES point per game rate is about the same as Sydor's and actually worse than Orpik's.

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app?formids=PropertySelection%2CPropertySelection_0%2CPropertySelection_1%2CPropertySelection_2%2CPropertySelection_3%2CPropertySelection_4%2CPropertySelection_5%2CSubmit&component=reportBuilder.%24Form&page=Home&service=direct&submitmode=submit&submitname=&PropertySelection=0&PropertySelection_0=0&PropertySelection_1=24&PropertySelection_2=5&PropertySelection_3=0&PropertySelection_4=0&PropertySelection_5=8&Submit=Get+Stats

Hal Gill has a whopping 19 ES points. I think that could mean a few things. I suspect his outlet passing must be better than I thought because obviously Gill isn't picking up ES points by rushing the puck. The Leafs also could have played a system that fed the points in the offensive zone and Gill picked up assists off his point shots.

The flip side is this helps explain why Gill's +/- wasn't totally in the toilet with the Leafs. As visual observation of Gill over many years in Boston and Toronto indicates, he isn't a very effective defender in open ice ES situations, especially without the hooking, holding, interference, etc he used against Jagr pre-lockout. His ES points masked the fact he was on the ice for quite a few goals against with the Leafs this season. Gill will help on the PK where he can play in space to protect his lower quadrant of the ice, but he is a defensive liability at ES.

Some interesting numbers on the subjective stats:

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app?formids=PropertySelection%2CPropertySelection_0%2CPropertySelection_1%2CPropertySelection_2%2CPropertySelection_3%2CPropertySelection_4%2CPropertySelection_5%2CSubmit&component=reportBuilder.%24Form&page=Home&service=direct&submitmode=submit&submitname=&PropertySelection=0&PropertySelection_0=0&PropertySelection_1=24&PropertySelection_2=5&PropertySelection_3=0&PropertySelection_4=0&PropertySelection_5=11&Submit=Get+Stats

The much maligned Whitney's turnover rate per game isn't much higher than the much beloved Letang. Adjusted for TOI they are probably equal.

Hal Gill's turnover rate is through the roof. I'm sure some of that can be explained by different home stat keeping subjective standards, but Gill probably does look to force the puck up ice frequently which explains his high ES assist totals, but he also is a turnover machine.


Stanley Cups are won & lost by play in front of the net.....Norris Trophy will never be the type of player they require to achieve this goal....I don't care what his +/- is, his ES tallies are, that is the bottom line. He is a bust, he is a wuss & we were foolish to sign him to the contract extension we did. Letang right now is everything Whitney is hyped to be, yet is far younger.....
edog
 

Postby Draftnik on Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:09 pm

edog wrote:Stanley Cups are won & lost by play in front of the net.....Norris Trophy will never be the type of player they require to achieve this goal....I don't care what his +/- is, his ES tallies are, that is the bottom line. He is a bust, he is a wuss & we were foolish to sign him to the contract extension we did. Letang right now is everything Whitney is hyped to be, yet is far younger.....


Gill blows. He is a pylon. He has all of 2 points in 36 playoff games and is -4. He's only made the playoffs in 5 of his previous 9 seasons and was heading for 5 of 10 before the trade. He has only been out of the 1st round once. He hasn't helped anybody get past the 2nd round of the playoffs, much less win a Cup.

I'd ridicule the folly of you trying to use a 1 game sample of 50 SOG to make a point when the 1 game sample of pylon Gill is -2, but the lack of statistical relevance is beyond your comprehension so what is the point?

As far as "we" goes, I don't work for the Pens so I didn't sign anybody. I think Shero did a good job signing Whit to the extension and I think it is obvious to anybody with a scintilla of objectivity that Whit is worth infinitely more than a pylon like Gill based on Campbell going for Bernier and a 1st while pylon went for a 2nd and a 5th. If you are part of the "we" then you are part of the decision to resign Whit or if you don't work for the Pens you are just another misguided fan that can't separate reality from fiction.

Letang's production and contribution does not equal the LGP.com groupthink.
Last edited by Draftnik on Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Steve on Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:16 pm

edog wrote:
Profiler wrote:
edog wrote:this is a case of addition by subtraction.....


Yeah, because we all know that anyone would rather have "Dont call me Kendall" Gill in the lineup than Whitney :roll: Please, pass along whatever drugs you are on......


:roll:
Gill is far more suited to playoff hockey than Norris Trophy ever will be.....let me remind you they gave up 50+ shots to the Islanders only 2 nights prior before Gill was ever in there.....


If it were possible, give me 20 Ryan Whitney's, and I'll give you 20 Hal Gills - and my team beats your team in a playoff game, every single time.
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Postby Sarcastic on Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:23 pm

I think I pulled my groin, too. Maybe it's a hernia. I've been ouchin' for a while now. Pain sometimes shoots into my inner thigh and stomach. Seeing a doctor soon.

Anybody had a hernia or a pull on here? What's the difference between the two?
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:24 pm

Draftnik:

don't bother with the stats. The Whitney hate club is too irrational to
be bothered with mathematical data.

All hail the savior KL. He will obviously lead us to the promised land.
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Postby Sarcastic on Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:25 pm

Hey, I think we all like Whitney. When we yell at him, we're trying to make him better. Maybe it will light a fire under his lazy butt.
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Postby Dean Wormer on Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:28 pm

Sarcastic wrote:Hey, I think we all like Whitney. When we yell at him, we're trying to make him better. Maybe it will light a fire under his lazy butt.


They're not saying boo, they're saying "Boo-urns".
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Postby edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:24 pm

Steve wrote:
edog wrote:
Profiler wrote:
edog wrote:this is a case of addition by subtraction.....


Yeah, because we all know that anyone would rather have "Dont call me Kendall" Gill in the lineup than Whitney :roll: Please, pass along whatever drugs you are on......


:roll:
Gill is far more suited to playoff hockey than Norris Trophy ever will be.....let me remind you they gave up 50+ shots to the Islanders only 2 nights prior before Gill was ever in there.....


If it were possible, give me 20 Ryan Whitney's, and I'll give you 20 Hal Gills - and my team beats your team in a playoff game, every single time.


:roll:

I'll take that bet any day of the week....Whitney is a cowardly punk.....nothing more....he showed at BU, he's showing it now.....

anyone else think Kjell Samuelsson was a pylon as well.....
Last edited by edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:25 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:Draftnik:

don't bother with the stats. The Whitney hate club is too irrational to
be bothered with mathematical data.

All hail the savior KL. He will obviously lead us to the promised land.


stats don't mean anything except for one.....

4-1 Ottawa last spring.....where was that coward then except getting beat each & every time down low.....
edog
 

Postby edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:27 pm

Draftnik wrote:
edog wrote:Stanley Cups are won & lost by play in front of the net.....Norris Trophy will never be the type of player they require to achieve this goal....I don't care what his +/- is, his ES tallies are, that is the bottom line. He is a bust, he is a wuss & we were foolish to sign him to the contract extension we did. Letang right now is everything Whitney is hyped to be, yet is far younger.....


Gill blows. He is a pylon. He has all of 2 points in 36 playoff games and is -4. He's only made the playoffs in 5 of his previous 9 seasons and was heading for 5 of 10 before the trade. He has only been out of the 1st round once. He hasn't helped anybody get past the 2nd round of the playoffs, much less win a Cup.

I'd ridicule the folly of you trying to use a 1 game sample of 50 SOG to make a point when the 1 game sample of pylon Gill is -2, but the lack of statistical relevance is beyond your comprehension so what is the point?

As far as "we" goes, I don't work for the Pens so I didn't sign anybody. I think Shero did a good job signing Whit to the extension and I think it is obvious to anybody with a scintilla of objectivity that Whit is worth infinitely more than a pylon like Gill based on Campbell going for Bernier and a 1st while pylon went for a 2nd and a 5th. If you are part of the "we" then you are part of the decision to resign Whit or if you don't work for the Pens you are just another misguided fan that can't separate reality from fiction.

Letang's production and contribution does not equal the LGP.com groupthink.


statistics have no relevance once the playoffs begin.....every big game this season, NT has been a no-show.....
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Postby Rocco on Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:39 pm

edog wrote:4-1 Ottawa last spring.....where was that coward then except getting beat each & every time down low.....


Yes, that series was all because of Whitney. Every d-man on the Pens looked terrible against Ottawa.
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Postby Draftnik on Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:40 pm

edog wrote:statistics have no relevance once the playoffs begin.....every big game this season, NT has been a no-show.....


You are delusional. You live in a fantasy world where Hal Gill = the great Kjell Samuelsson. Samuelsson was one of the best defensive Dman in the NHL while he played. Gill never was and never will be.

Just as I type this your heroes Gill and Letang allowed Vermette to go unfettered in front of Conks for a deflection. The Gill/Letang pairing needs to be aborted ASAP.
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Postby edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:49 pm

Draftnik wrote:
edog wrote:statistics have no relevance once the playoffs begin.....every big game this season, NT has been a no-show.....


You are delusional. You live in a fantasy world where Hal Gill = the great Kjell Samuelsson. Samuelsson was one of the best defensive Dman in the NHL while he played. Gill never was and never will be.

Just as I type this your heroes Gill and Letang allowed Vermette to go unfettered in front of Conks for a deflection. The Gill/Letang pairing needs to be aborted ASAP.


show me where I said Hal Gill=Kjell Samuelsson..... :roll:

what's the difference between that & your boy Whitney playing small in his own end......at least Letang hits people & Gill can keep guys out from in front.....maybe Crown Jewel can stick check someone.....
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Postby Draftnik on Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:02 pm

edog wrote:show me where I said Hal Gill=Kjell Samuelsson..... :roll:

what's the difference between that & your boy Whitney playing small in his own end......at least Letang hits people & Gill can keep guys out from in front.....maybe Crown Jewel can stick check someone.....


You injected Kjell into the discussion and compared him to the only other player dubbed a pylon in this thread (Hal Gill).

CBC just showed Donevan beat Letang to a puck in the corner. I hate to say it but Tanger didn't want to get hit. His cowardice led to the pylon taking a penalty.
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Postby Steve on Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:02 pm

edog wrote:
Steve wrote:
edog wrote:
Profiler wrote:
edog wrote:this is a case of addition by subtraction.....


Yeah, because we all know that anyone would rather have "Dont call me Kendall" Gill in the lineup than Whitney :roll: Please, pass along whatever drugs you are on......


:roll:
Gill is far more suited to playoff hockey than Norris Trophy ever will be.....let me remind you they gave up 50+ shots to the Islanders only 2 nights prior before Gill was ever in there.....


If it were possible, give me 20 Ryan Whitney's, and I'll give you 20 Hal Gills - and my team beats your team in a playoff game, every single time.


:roll:

I'll take that bet any day of the week....Whitney is a cowardly punk.....nothing more....he showed at BU, he's showing it now.....

anyone else think Kjell Samuelsson was a pylon as well.....


That's terrific, as I would enjoy taking your money every day of the week.

I'm certainly not a huge fan of Whitney, but come on, Hal Gill?

:roll: :roll:
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Postby edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:07 pm

Steve wrote:
edog wrote:
Steve wrote:
edog wrote:
Profiler wrote:
edog wrote:this is a case of addition by subtraction.....


Yeah, because we all know that anyone would rather have "Dont call me Kendall" Gill in the lineup than Whitney :roll: Please, pass along whatever drugs you are on......


:roll:
Gill is far more suited to playoff hockey than Norris Trophy ever will be.....let me remind you they gave up 50+ shots to the Islanders only 2 nights prior before Gill was ever in there.....


If it were possible, give me 20 Ryan Whitney's, and I'll give you 20 Hal Gills - and my team beats your team in a playoff game, every single time.


:roll:

I'll take that bet any day of the week....Whitney is a cowardly punk.....nothing more....he showed at BU, he's showing it now.....

anyone else think Kjell Samuelsson was a pylon as well.....


That's terrific, as I would enjoy taking your money every day of the week.

I'm certainly not a huge fan of Whitney, but come on, Hal Gill?

:roll: :roll:


do you honestly think Alfredsson & Heatley (or even Comrie for that matter) would have run rampant deep in our zone last spring with Gill out there.....

they saw how big a puss Norris Trophy is & licked their chops accordingly.....
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Postby Rocco on Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:08 pm

edog wrote:do you honestly think Alfredsson & Heatley (or even Comrie for that matter) would have run rampant deep in our zone last spring with Gill out there.....

they saw how big a puss Norris Trophy is & licked their chops accordingly.....


Would Gill have gotten close enough to those two to even do anything?
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Postby edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:15 pm

Rocco wrote:
edog wrote:do you honestly think Alfredsson & Heatley (or even Comrie for that matter) would have run rampant deep in our zone last spring with Gill out there.....

they saw how big a puss Norris Trophy is & licked their chops accordingly.....


Would Gill have gotten close enough to those two to even do anything?


Gill would have boxed them out.....something our defense never does....
edog
 

Postby Draftnik on Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:22 pm

edog wrote:
Rocco wrote:
edog wrote:do you honestly think Alfredsson & Heatley (or even Comrie for that matter) would have run rampant deep in our zone last spring with Gill out there.....

they saw how big a puss Norris Trophy is & licked their chops accordingly.....


Would Gill have gotten close enough to those two to even do anything?


Gill would have boxed them out.....something our defense never does....


The opposition has 6 goals while he has been on the ice in his 5+ periods as a Penguin. He might not be allowed to dress in the playoffs but given the way Letang, Gonchar, and Sydor played today I don't think MT could scratch all 4.
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Postby Rocco on Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:29 pm

edog wrote:
Rocco wrote:
edog wrote:do you honestly think Alfredsson & Heatley (or even Comrie for that matter) would have run rampant deep in our zone last spring with Gill out there.....

they saw how big a puss Norris Trophy is & licked their chops accordingly.....


Would Gill have gotten close enough to those two to even do anything?


Gill would have boxed them out.....something our defense never does....


He's doing a great job of boxing out so far. How many goals have been scored when he's on the ice?
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Postby edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:45 pm

Rocco wrote:
edog wrote:
Rocco wrote:
edog wrote:do you honestly think Alfredsson & Heatley (or even Comrie for that matter) would have run rampant deep in our zone last spring with Gill out there.....

they saw how big a puss Norris Trophy is & licked their chops accordingly.....


Would Gill have gotten close enough to those two to even do anything?


Gill would have boxed them out.....something our defense never does....


He's doing a great job of boxing out so far. How many goals have been scored when he's on the ice?


how many shots are now coming from the high slot....BTW, we really missed Norris Trophy out there today.... :roll:
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Postby Jesse on Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:47 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:Draftnik:

don't bother with the stats. The Whitney hate club is too irrational to
be bothered with mathematical data.

All hail the savior KL. He will obviously lead us to the promised land.



I forgot that stats were the end all/be all of the NHL.

Now we're going to crucify Letang for not putting up points as a rookie.
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Postby Steve on Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:54 pm

edog wrote:
Steve wrote:
edog wrote:
Steve wrote:
edog wrote:
Profiler wrote:
edog wrote:this is a case of addition by subtraction.....


Yeah, because we all know that anyone would rather have "Dont call me Kendall" Gill in the lineup than Whitney :roll: Please, pass along whatever drugs you are on......


:roll:
Gill is far more suited to playoff hockey than Norris Trophy ever will be.....let me remind you they gave up 50+ shots to the Islanders only 2 nights prior before Gill was ever in there.....


If it were possible, give me 20 Ryan Whitney's, and I'll give you 20 Hal Gills - and my team beats your team in a playoff game, every single time.


:roll:

I'll take that bet any day of the week....Whitney is a cowardly punk.....nothing more....he showed at BU, he's showing it now.....

anyone else think Kjell Samuelsson was a pylon as well.....


That's terrific, as I would enjoy taking your money every day of the week.

I'm certainly not a huge fan of Whitney, but come on, Hal Gill?

:roll: :roll:


do you honestly think Alfredsson & Heatley (or even Comrie for that matter) would have run rampant deep in our zone last spring with Gill out there.....



Easy question, but yes.
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Postby edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:09 pm

Jesse wrote:
bill from turtle creek wrote:Draftnik:

don't bother with the stats. The Whitney hate club is too irrational to
be bothered with mathematical data.

All hail the savior KL. He will obviously lead us to the promised land.



I forgot that stats were the end all/be all of the NHL.

Now we're going to crucify Letang for not putting up points as a rookie.


of course.....what did you expect of this august forum..... :lol:
edog
 

Postby Ben Klingston on Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:10 pm

edog wrote:do you honestly think Alfredsson & Heatley (or even Comrie for that matter) would have run rampant deep in our zone last spring with Gill out there.....


No. Instead of playing down low and in front of the net, like they did, they would have skated around Hal's large inept ass and scored off the rush.

Hal would get mad, would clear the crease (taking some dumb penalties in the process), and may dish out a few big hits. But it's the playoffs and guys will take a hit to score a goal... even Comrie or Orange Sherbert. If they were excited to be able to play down low against Whitney, they sure as hell would have loved to back Hal in from his own blue line.

If this was 1998 and we either 1) had Jags, or 2) were playing against Jags, I'd take Hal. Now? Blech.
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