Palffy: return 50-50, considers coming back to Pittsburgh

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Postby td_ice on Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:12 pm

Ok, I just looked up Hilbert's and Armstrong's totals, and "by comparison" Palffy's pathetic stats.

I had no intentions or was not even curious about the comparison till you brought it up. So here are the stats.

Colby games, 47, goals 16, 40 points

Hilbert games, 19. goals 7, 18 points

Palffy games, 42, goals 11, 42 points

Hardly pathetic by comparison.

Not sure what you are talking about there.

Anyway, my point was that if Sid is cool with him, and enjoyed playing with Palffy, that is cool with me.

As far as his salary, I surely do not like it for next year, because hopefully Malkin will be here.

But for this year?? So what, we add $4 mill to the payroll, what does that do, put us only $10 mill below the cap??? And it is only prorated, so it will be less than that.
td_ice
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:09 pm

Postby Draftnik on Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:16 pm

td_ice wrote:
Draftnik wrote:
td_ice wrote:The stats don't lie. Armstrong and Hilbert scored more goals per game with Crosby than Palffy. That is a fact, not my opinion. Crosby lifted Armstrong past his AHL output and Hilbert much above his previous NHL output. Palffy was pathetic by comparison. He is a soft floater that does not have production worthy of a $4M-$5M salary.


Wow, I never said Palffy had better stats playing with Sid than anyone else.

In fact the only thing I said about Sid, was what Crosby himself said.

Wow, if you have a problem with that, take it up with Sid.


When did Crosby praise Palffy? Was it after Derian Hatcher cross checked him in the face? Was if after Kovalchuk slew footed him? Was it after any other number of opponents ran him. I'd like to blame Palffy for the Messaros kneeing incident but he was gone by then. I don't recall Crosby singling Palffy out for praise. If he did it would be akin to Lemieux signing his good friend Dan Quinn to a contract for the 96/97 season a few weeks after he traded Zubov for Kevin Hatcher. Players are supposed to play. Managers are supposed to manage.


Crosby went on a tear at the end of the season when Palffy was gone. Other wingers scored more goals per game with Crosby. Every player on the team with the exception of Gonchar has a lower Cap value. There is no logical reason to add more cancer to the room.
Draftnik
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,011
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:52 pm
Location: Peters Twp.

Postby Draftnik on Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:26 pm

td_ice wrote:Ok, I just looked up Hilbert's and Armstrong's totals, and "by comparison" Palffy's pathetic stats.

I had no intentions or was not even curious about the comparison till you brought it up. So here are the stats.

Colby games, 47, goals 16, 40 points

Hilbert games, 19. goals 7, 18 points

Palffy games, 42, goals 11, 42 points

Hardly pathetic by comparison.

Not sure what you are talking about there.

Anyway, my point was that if Sid is cool with him, and enjoyed playing with Palffy, that is cool with me.

As far as his salary, I surely do not like it for next year, because hopefully Malkin will be here.

But for this year?? So what, we add $4 mill to the payroll, what does that do, put us only $10 mill below the cap??? And it is only prorated, so it will be less than that.


Did you watch all 82 games? Armstrong did not play with Crosby for 47 games and Hilbert didn't play with him for 17 games. When they played with Crosby they were much more productive than they were with other linemates. Look at Crosby's splits after Palffy left. His ppg and gpg are much better without the cancer.

Pathetic is a guy like Hilbert putting up better numbers for less than $1M, Army putting up better numbers for less than $1M than a soft, floating, gutless, heartless, loser put up for $4.5M.

Salaries count when evaluating real NHL players. This isn't PlayStation.

Palffy's salary has nothing to do with the Cap. The Pens operate with something called a budget. They have to make decisions on personnel based on ROI. The NHL does not allow teams to selectively ignore the last year of a contract. The Pens would owe Palffy at a minimum 2/3 of his 07/08 salary on a buyout if he came back. The move makes no sense on any objective level. Add in subjective issues like team character, commitment to work hard on every shift, toughness, etc and it is flat out insane.
Draftnik
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,011
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:52 pm
Location: Peters Twp.

Postby td_ice on Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:31 pm

Well, awesome, thanks for the note about it not being Playstation.

Thank you.

Palffy, a cancer? First I have heard about that. Sid didn't think so. I would love to hear who called him that.

Fine, if Crosby didn't play with Colby for 47 games, and Hilbert didn't even play 17, that is not much to go on then. Statwise. Wow, breaking it down, like that, this isn't PLAYSTATION ya know. In fact neither is half a season for Palffy.

As for the budget, we have no idea what the new owner will have as a budget over the ML group. If that is their budget, and it won't expand at all, then no worries, because Palffy won't even be a consderation.

If it is insane, then you have nothing to worry about, because then Shero would never consider it.

Ray seems like a pretty rational guy.
td_ice
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:09 pm

Postby HomerPenguin on Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:02 am

Draftnik wrote:I see no upside in adding a guy that was grossly overpaid to the payroll. He would be making $4M to $5M prorated for the balance of the 06/07 season and just as much if not more for the 07/08 season. I see no reason any GM with a sliver of brain would trade for him and the Pens would be stuck with another albatross.


Depends. If he comes back in February and starts putting up points, I could see a team possibly taking a chance on him. Not likely, I know, but not impossible. My preference would be that they have nothing to do with the guy, but if they do bring him back then it's almost surely in the hopes that they can deal him either by the deadline or during the offseason.
HomerPenguin
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,884
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:50 pm
Location: ...

Postby André on Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:48 am

I don't think Palffy's reputation is as bad as some people on this board suggests. If he begins putting up points we can trade him.

He's an elite offensive talent after all. I want something exciting to follow now that we're without Malkin. A healthy Palffy with Crosby and Armstrong could be awesome. And also allow Ekman to cover for Recchis lack of defense on the 2nd line.
André
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,339
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:51 am
Location: Gävle, Sweden

Postby Ron` on Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:35 am

Palffy came here with a bad shoulder, took a in season haitus to get married, avoided contact and retired because of his supposed shoulder. There was blood spilled with managment when he retired. From all reports his shoulder was an injury that could have been repaired or rehabed. He was not the offensive force in Pittsburgh his contract warranted. From all indications I have seen, he flat out quit to get out of the misery of Pittsburgh's 2005-2006 season.

With regards to his contract, we are closer to the cap minimum than you think and likely our budget too. Why in any frame of mind Shero would accept him back at his cap hit with open arms is illogical. His trade value at this point is very low, draft pick at best.

All the money budgeted by teams will be spent before Feb when he can come back. Only way he gets back and moved this season is if we have to accept him back with his old contract immediately upon un-retiring OR lose his rights. If that is the case then he is moved for a pick if possible or flat out waived to avoid the cap hit.
Ron`
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,037
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:58 pm
Location: Central PA

Postby Bowser on Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:39 am

Palffy doesn't have a signed contract, Pens would have to signoff on him being allowed to re-enter the NHL and that's about as much as the Pens care to get themselves involved with the quitter.

Not sure how much Los Angeles wants Palffy back since it was Dave Taylor that was snooping around and he's no longer the GM for the Kings.
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,963
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Postby Mad City Mike on Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:26 am

Ziggy the Quitter wrote:but they can trade me as well


First intelligent thought to come out of his mouth in many a moon.
Mad City Mike
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,790
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:14 am
Location: De Forest, WI

Postby opie22002 on Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:45 am

It seems like some of us are awfully quick to discount Ray Shero's thoughts on building a hard-to-play against, gritty team that will be a contender for years to come. Palffy, plain and simply, does not fit that billing. A lot of us like to criticize Craig Patrick for not having a plan when assembling the team last year. Why then would be so willing to forego the sensible plan put forth by RS in favor of picking up a guy with less than heart than the Tin Man?
opie22002
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,245
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:48 pm

Postby Zscout on Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:11 am

The majority of Penguin fans would welcome Palffy back. It is good to see his injury is healing and that he may try to make a comeback.
For those that call Palffy lazy and a quitter, you are the same few posters that thrive on putting down players, all the time, every time. You do not speak for 99% of the real Penguin fans. A healthy Palffy would be a solid weapon or provide a good return from a playoff bound team.
Zscout
 

Postby Kicksave on Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:35 am

Zscout wrote:The majority of Penguin fans would welcome Palffy back. It is good to see his injury is healing and that he may try to make a comeback.
For those that call Palffy lazy and a quitter, you are the same few posters that thrive on putting down players, all the time, every time. You do not speak for 99% of the real Penguin fans. A healthy Palffy would be a solid weapon or provide a good return from a playoff bound team.


Is it just me or aren't you the one that is always putting down the Penguins?
Kicksave
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 20,572
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:53 am
Location: Feeling like I want to rage...right now.

Postby netwolf on Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:44 am

Kicksave wrote:Is it just me or aren't you the one that is always putting down the Penguins?

He's just upset Rico Fata isn't here anymore. :lol:
netwolf
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,387
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:04 am

Postby Ron` on Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:44 am

Zscout that's a pretty broad net you cast there with your statement regarding Pens fans. I personally don't want the guy back here unless he's 100% healthy and committed. Especially not at his former contract numbers for sure.

Ziggy alone made the "odd" choice to retire instead of rehabing/surgery or whatever to fix his "shoulder problem". I say shoulder problem as there has never been a medical confirmation of it's extent.

Considering he could have drawn his contract while rehabing, how can you not believe he flat out "QUIT" on the team and the organization. Ziggy has some "splaining" to do as Ricky Ricardo used to say.
Ron`
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,037
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:58 pm
Location: Central PA

Postby Kicksave on Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:50 am

netwolf wrote:
Kicksave wrote:Is it just me or aren't you the one that is always putting down the Penguins?

He's just upset Rico Fata isn't here anymore. :lol:


LONG LIVE THE X GENNERATION
Kicksave
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 20,572
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:53 am
Location: Feeling like I want to rage...right now.

Postby Draftnik on Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:14 pm

Bowser wrote:Palffy doesn't have a signed contract, Pens would have to signoff on him being allowed to re-enter the NHL and that's about as much as the Pens care to get themselves involved with the quitter.

Not sure how much Los Angeles wants Palffy back since it was Dave Taylor that was snooping around and he's no longer the GM for the Kings.


How else would Palffy's rights revert to the Pens if it were not under the terms of his previous deal? I don't think any of us speak with absolute certainty on the issue, but if the Pens "own" Palffy's rights it would be because of a contract. It seems highly unlikely they could restrict his movement to another team unless he is contractually bound to them. I see where you are going though that the Pens probably would have right of first refusal to take Palffy back under the terms of his old agreement and if they elected not to then Palffy would become an UFA. It doesn't seem logical that they could retain his rights as an RFA and prevent him from playing for another team while they tried to get him signed to a new deal.
Draftnik
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,011
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:52 pm
Location: Peters Twp.

Postby Bowser on Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:20 pm

Drafty - yes, right of first refusal.
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,963
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Postby Draftnik on Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:24 pm

Bowser wrote:Drafty - yes, right of first refusal.


Under that scenario it makes absolutely no sense for the Pens to welcome him back. No team in their right mind is going to trade for him knowing they would be on the hook for ~ $4.5M in 07/08.
Draftnik
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,011
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:52 pm
Location: Peters Twp.

Postby Bowser on Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:28 pm

it was months ago but I'll ask him again about the Palffy situation.
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,963
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Postby Ron` on Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:28 pm

That's what I was thinking too Draftnik. But I am not sure how that all works legally with a retired under contract player returning etc.
Ron`
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,037
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:58 pm
Location: Central PA

Postby Jim on Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:58 pm

Palffy's rights to Chicago for Tumo Ruutu's rights, HA!
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,758
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby FallenHero96 on Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:04 pm

Palffy is a 30 goal man... cry baby or not, I wont complain if he comes back, or if they happen to get some decent value in trade.
FallenHero96
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,636
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:39 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Ron` on Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:22 pm

Put anyone on Crosby's wing short of Rico Fata and they are 30 goal man for a heck of alot less than Palffy.
Ron`
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,037
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:58 pm
Location: Central PA

Postby Brode on Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:03 pm

I think alot of people don't really understand the deal with Palffy's retirement. Players over 35 who retire are awarded their full contracts, and they count against the cap. Not only did Palffy retire due to injury, but he was also 33. This is to make sure that someone like... oh, I don't know, Tuomo Ruutu doesn't retire due to injury at 23 and cost his team millions for the next 5 years. It's when guys over 35, such as Malakhov or Mogilny, when they retire is when it becomes difficult. Also see the 100% buyout penalty of Domi in Toronto. Part of the CBA was that 37 year olds gave up bargaining power and 27 year olds gained an incredible amount.

Now, as for his injury. You'd have to be blind to think he wasn't injured. This is a guy who used to be able to score practically at will. And last year he puts up 11 goals in 42 games. You know something is wrong with his arms if this sniper is on pace for 20 goals in the New NHL, while being centered by the Kid. If you watched him, you knew that his shot was completely different than years before. He wasn't ripping shots from the right circle, all of the goals I can remember were slide-ins and garbage. He was hurt, in some shape or form. Whether or not his arm could've been fixed quicker or that he should have done it during the lockout is up to debate (though I can't see a player choosing surgery before they sign a contract).

Now, should we take him back? The beauty part of this situation is that he can't come back until February. Who knows what this team will look like in February? One of our kids could completely crap the bed, like many of them did last year. Pivko could be cold as a stone and be on his way back to Euroslavia before Thanksgiving. Ekman might be as crappy as Palffy was last year. Maybe all Army did this summer was eat hot dogs and play Elder Scrolls IV (I couldn't blame him). Shero doesn't have to decide this right now, he has until then. And what if he looks like the Palffy of old. Some teams will have to trade for playoff assets to boost their team... if we're in 7th or 8th, we'll have one lined up already.

For those who'll complain about his contract, realize that the 4.5 is only the number against the cap. Then remember that the cap has absolutely no relation to what we do. His contract, pro-rated for half a year's work, will be around 2 million, if he in fact makes the team. This is the reason why Carolina was able to take on Weight and Recchi's contracts... they didn't have to pay 9 million for them, they paid... I don't know, maybe 2.5? 3?

Lastly, I think we hold the reins here. If Palffy looks good enough to play a role here, then we can activate him. If Shero and Therrien don't want Palffy, we can look for someone who does and get a 2nd rounder or something out of him. If Palffy looks like crap and there's no buyers, I believe we can simply refuse to activate him. I doubt it's as simple as that, but I can't see the CBA allowing players to screw with teams that much. And if it does, I could see some alterations proposed in a couple years when it needs to be renewed.
Brode
 

Postby Draftnik on Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:40 pm

Brode wrote:I think alot of people don't really understand the deal with Palffy's retirement. Players over 35 who retire are awarded their full contracts, and they count against the cap. Not only did Palffy retire due to injury, but he was also 33. This is to make sure that someone like... oh, I don't know, Tuomo Ruutu doesn't retire due to injury at 23 and cost his team millions for the next 5 years. It's when guys over 35, such as Malakhov or Mogilny, when they retire is when it becomes difficult. Also see the 100% buyout penalty of Domi in Toronto. Part of the CBA was that 37 year olds gave up bargaining power and 27 year olds gained an incredible amount.

Now, as for his injury. You'd have to be blind to think he wasn't injured. This is a guy who used to be able to score practically at will. And last year he puts up 11 goals in 42 games. You know something is wrong with his arms if this sniper is on pace for 20 goals in the New NHL, while being centered by the Kid. If you watched him, you knew that his shot was completely different than years before. He wasn't ripping shots from the right circle, all of the goals I can remember were slide-ins and garbage. He was hurt, in some shape or form. Whether or not his arm could've been fixed quicker or that he should have done it during the lockout is up to debate (though I can't see a player choosing surgery before they sign a contract).

Now, should we take him back? The beauty part of this situation is that he can't come back until February. Who knows what this team will look like in February? One of our kids could completely crap the bed, like many of them did last year. Pivko could be cold as a stone and be on his way back to Euroslavia before Thanksgiving. Ekman might be as crappy as Palffy was last year. Maybe all Army did this summer was eat hot dogs and play Elder Scrolls IV (I couldn't blame him). Shero doesn't have to decide this right now, he has until then. And what if he looks like the Palffy of old. Some teams will have to trade for playoff assets to boost their team... if we're in 7th or 8th, we'll have one lined up already.

For those who'll complain about his contract, realize that the 4.5 is only the number against the cap. Then remember that the cap has absolutely no relation to what we do. His contract, pro-rated for half a year's work, will be around 2 million, if he in fact makes the team. This is the reason why Carolina was able to take on Weight and Recchi's contracts... they didn't have to pay 9 million for them, they paid... I don't know, maybe 2.5? 3?

Lastly, I think we hold the reins here. If Palffy looks good enough to play a role here, then we can activate him. If Shero and Therrien don't want Palffy, we can look for someone who does and get a 2nd rounder or something out of him. If Palffy looks like crap and there's no buyers, I believe we can simply refuse to activate him. I doubt it's as simple as that, but I can't see the CBA allowing players to screw with teams that much. And if it does, I could see some alterations proposed in a couple years when it needs to be renewed.


Actually you don't understand the deal with Palffy's retirement. The 35+ is irrelevant to this situation. Nobody in this thread claimed it was. NHL contracts are guaranteed against playing injuries. That is a fact, not my opinion. When players are injured they have MRIs, XRays, other conventional diagnostic examinations, etc to confirm the injury. Then they are placed on injured reserve and the team continues to play their full salary. If they are injured to the point where they are unable to continue their career they are paid the balance of their contract or they negotiate an injury settlement with the team for a portion of the contract. This again is a fact, not my opinion. Palffy followed neither of those standard injury scenarios, again another fact. He filed retirement papers with the NHL that had nothing to do with an injury. Again another fact.

The Pens only control Palffy's rights if they reinstate his previous contract. The obligation remaining is not only for a prorated 06/07 season but a full 07/08 season @ ~ $4.5M. A waiver wire pickup like Andy Hilbert threw up much better #s than Palffy when he was paired with Crosby. A corpse could score 30 goals riding shotgun with Crosby and also have enough heart to not let Hatcher cross check him in the face or Kovalchuk slew foot him into the boards. The Pens wouldn't get to have Palffy practice with the NHL team to determine whether or not they wanted to "activate" him. If Palffy practices with the team he has to have an NHL contract. The NHL came down on the Flyers last year when they let Steve Downie practice with them while he was waiting for a trade from Windsor. If the Pens don't reinstate Palffy's contract he would be free to sign with any NHL team. He doesn't need relief from an amended CBA.
Draftnik
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,011
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:52 pm
Location: Peters Twp.

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Chirpin' Grinder, jcgopens, OutofFoil, Pitts, themadstork and 18 guests


e-mail