Pierre saying Malkin to Kings for Kopitar, Dustin Brown

[Kraftster]

My question is, where is Sid getting all of his assits from if no one can play with him?

Well anyone they put, or try to put, on his line is expected to score. Nobody is questioning his playmaking, he can make Colby Armstrong look good driving to the net. The matter at hand is: playing alongside Malkin vs. playing alongside Crosby. To me, it seems as if Crosby is at his best when playing alongisde fairly decent wingers. Malkin is good by himself most times, can take over a game by himself, and doesn't need a Hossa to play on his wing to be successful.

To me, this is a Mr. Obvious statement. Given the style of game that Malkin plays, its only natural that he would be better by himself when it comes to the scoresheet. I don't think anyone would dispute that he's a superior finisher.

[Steve]

steve, i think you can ask any player in the league that question

yup - and I seriously can't believe the nonsense I'm reading in this thread about Sid and Malkin.

[kirk]

This is an "out of sight - out of mind" argument. People forgot what Crosby was capable of because he was missing for a good part of the year.

Sidney Crosby is one of the most dynamic and competitive hockey players I've ever seen. His fire is so great that he can be downright embarassing sometimes with his antics.

People forget that Crosby was roughly 10-12 points ahead in the scoring race when he got injured. It took Lecavalier nearly 4-5 games to surpass him after the HAS.

Malkin nearly won the scoring title this year and he still couldn't get close to the 120 big ones that Crosby put up last year.

Crosby has a sixth sense about the game and dynamic vision that Malkin will never have. It's innate. Malkin can bury the puck and charge through defenders, but Crosby can lift a team like no one I've ever seen. When the Penguins were down and out against the Red Wings and couldn't score a goal, he elevated his game to a level that I've never seen.

Sure, Malkin had a great regular season with Sid out, but even then, he never got to the level of intensity and gamesmanship that Crosby has.

The man is a born leader. Malkin doesn't posses that quality.

Crosby got 120 points last season with Malkin on his team. Malkin did the bulk of his damage without Sid and as the singular target of everyone's attention. It does again give rise to the question of how the Pens would have fared if Malkin had been lost to injury and Sid had been left to center Malone and Sykora.

You know, I don't want to get into the Sid versus Malkin thing per se, but I actually see Malkin as the nexus for this team. When he is on, the Pens win consistently, regardless of how others including Sid (if he's around) perform (goaltending being an obvious exception). When have the Pens won consistently when Geno is off? I hope that people keep that in mind in their haste to trade him.

The arguments are getting very circular.

Malkin is usually "on", as is Sid. That means you have two world class players who are clicking, makes it a tough opponent for another team.

Malkin is our MVP this year. Downplaying what he did is ludicrous. As is suggesting that Sid couldn't carry this team if Malkin was the player who was injured. That's what world class players such as Malkin or Sid do, when they are faced with a challenge - they respond. Both of them have proved that over and over in their brief careers so far.

Steve, my point in all of this is that what makes the Pens lethal is that they have Sid AND Malkin, two players who can control games. Once you give up one, no matter how good the return might be, you sacrifice that competitive advantage . . . hence, why I think that it's absurd to trade Malkin.

[kirk]

Everytime Malkin steps on the ice, you feel a goal is going to happen for the Penguins.

Everytime?

Yeah, I wish I felt that way more during the Finals when Geno was on the ice.

In case you didn't know or notice. The kid was playing with a terrible flu. His one linemate had a broken finger and his other linemate was playing a broken nose. There isn't much a guy can do by himself against an almost inpenetrable Detroit defense. Not saying Crosby had it made, but it was much easier for him to have a healthy Hossa playing alongside him.

Everyone is banged up and hurting by the finals. I thought Crosby had the tougher match-ups anyway.

And he had Hossa, which begs the question once again: If Sid is the best player in the world, someone who can make just about any linemate better, then why does he need Hossa where someone like Malkin can be dominant with Malone and Sykora?

Perhaps it has everything to do with chemistry, and nothing to do with Sid being better than Malkin or vice-versa.

So, then Malkin has chemistry with a greater variety of players? That pretty much confirms HeyNow's contention as to why Malkin is so important, because unlike Sid, who through his play asks his linemates to keep up with him, Malkin can make just about anyone look better on the wing than they are.

He asks what through his play? What are you talking about?

Malkin is one of the few players in this league who can make just about anyone look good on his line- I definitely agree.

So can Sid. Just ask Hilbert or Colby Armstrong.

And Malone and Sykora . . .

[DocEmrick]

It is enjoyable using this thread strictly for entertainment purposes and hyptohetical situations, but no matter what anyone says, Malkin isn't going anywhere.

[Pitts]

Pitts, what you've spelled out is more an indictment of Therrien than a comment about the impossibility of having two quote unquote #1 centers. John Tortorella had no problem in Tampa playing Prince Vinny 22-23 minutes a night and Richards for about 24 minutes a night (save the "look where it got him comment, because that was about goaltending and an unwillingness from ownership to spend to the cap). And, you can have two balance PP units and be excellent, something Montreal, the top PP unit in the regular season, showed. Now, all it takes to achieve a co-#1 on the ice scenario is a willingness on behalf of Therrien to play fourth line players 2-4 minutes a night.

I can agree with this. I do, though like the idea of rolling 4 strong lines. I just always have for some reason.

[kirk]

It is enjoyable using this thread strictly for entertainment purposes and hyptohetical situations, but no matter what anyone says, Malkin isn't going anywhere.

Of course not, because Shero isn't that dumb. There's a reason why Shero's first comment about Malkin after his hiring was "if we can find a way to get him over here, than he is going to make me and Michel Therrien look a lot smarter than we are".

[newarenanow]

Steve, my point in all of this is that what makes the Pens lethal is that they have Sid AND Malkin, two players who can control games. Once you give up one, no matter how good the return might be, you sacrifice that competitive advantage . . . hence, why I think that it's absurd to trade Malkin.

But you were able to pay for a competitve team around those two when they were only having a cap hit of appr. $3M. Starting in two years, that hit will be $20M, along with Fluery, Staal, Whitney.

If Malkin takes a discount a la Sid, then you should never, ever trade him. If he wants $11-12M, it makes it very difficult, especially if you want to keep Hossa.

It's about cap space.

[Pipes Hochuli]

its just as enjoyable to see the amount of people who wont accept that the penguins might lose some of their core, despite the goal being to retain them for as long as possible.

we wont know what's going to happen until this offseason plays out. thats why there is speculation.

[Kraftster]

When Sid was out, Therrien had no choice but to use him like that, to give him consistent, quality shifts at even strength, to use him a little on the PK, and to put him in his comfort zone on the PP. With Sid back and Therrien's philosophy of playing fourth line guys 5-7 minutes a game, something had to give. It was Malkin, who may as well have been walking around with a name tag that said "Sidney's *****" a lot of the time.

In a way, you are supporting my argument then that Malkin is a #1, not a #2 and needs to play and get paid like one. The Pen's already have one.

And, what if Malkin does in fact feel like Sidney's b*tch? Maybe he don't wanna play that game no mo? (Not that I know that, Malkin's Fan Club!)

I see your point about Therrien playing the 3rd and 4th line less to increase Malkin's ice, but really, he will still always be playing 2nd fiddle in every area of the game in Pittsburgh. Crosby will require more and more ice time as he matures just as Malkin will. Are you comfortable running both of them at 25 minutes a game for 82 games a season? When, then do the other lines get to play? What about Staal's 3rd line?

Pitts, what you've spelled out is more an indictment of Therrien than a comment about the impossibility of having two quote unquote #1 centers. John Tortorella had no problem in Tampa playing Prince Vinny 22-23 minutes a night and Richards for about 24 minutes a night (save the "look where it got him comment, because that was about goaltending and an unwillingness from ownership to spend to the cap). And, you can have two balance PP units and be excellent, something Montreal, the top PP unit in the regular season, showed. Now, all it takes to achieve a co-#1 on the ice scenario is a willingness on behalf of Therrien to play fourth line players 2-4 minutes a night.

I'm not sure I understand where the notion that Sid will "need" more ice time as he matures is coming from. I think Sid is more than willing to take shorter shifts to stay fresh, and, given the way he plays the game, maybe he's most effective playing right around the time that he's getting right now.

In the same vein, its unclear to me why its necessarily a bad thing ("indictment" of Therrien) to roll four lines. I thought that the ice time thing in the finals was just insanely overblown by NBC. I think there is certainly something that can be said for how playing all four lines can lead to success.

[Steve]

This is an "out of sight - out of mind" argument. People forgot what Crosby was capable of because he was missing for a good part of the year.

Sidney Crosby is one of the most dynamic and competitive hockey players I've ever seen. His fire is so great that he can be downright embarassing sometimes with his antics.

People forget that Crosby was roughly 10-12 points ahead in the scoring race when he got injured. It took Lecavalier nearly 4-5 games to surpass him after the HAS.

Malkin nearly won the scoring title this year and he still couldn't get close to the 120 big ones that Crosby put up last year.

Crosby has a sixth sense about the game and dynamic vision that Malkin will never have. It's innate. Malkin can bury the puck and charge through defenders, but Crosby can lift a team like no one I've ever seen. When the Penguins were down and out against the Red Wings and couldn't score a goal, he elevated his game to a level that I've never seen.

Sure, Malkin had a great regular season with Sid out, but even then, he never got to the level of intensity and gamesmanship that Crosby has.

The man is a born leader. Malkin doesn't posses that quality.

Crosby got 120 points last season with Malkin on his team. Malkin did the bulk of his damage without Sid and as the singular target of everyone's attention. It does again give rise to the question of how the Pens would have fared if Malkin had been lost to injury and Sid had been left to center Malone and Sykora.

You know, I don't want to get into the Sid versus Malkin thing per se, but I actually see Malkin as the nexus for this team. When he is on, the Pens win consistently, regardless of how others including Sid (if he's around) perform (goaltending being an obvious exception). When have the Pens won consistently when Geno is off? I hope that people keep that in mind in their haste to trade him.

The arguments are getting very circular.

Malkin is usually "on", as is Sid. That means you have two world class players who are clicking, makes it a tough opponent for another team.

Malkin is our MVP this year. Downplaying what he did is ludicrous. As is suggesting that Sid couldn't carry this team if Malkin was the player who was injured. That's what world class players such as Malkin or Sid do, when they are faced with a challenge - they respond. Both of them have proved that over and over in their brief careers so far.

Steve, my point in all of this is that what makes the Pens lethal is that they have Sid AND Malkin, two players who can control games. Once you give up one, no matter how good the return might be, you sacrifice that competitive advantage . . . hence, why I think that it's absurd to trade Malkin.

I agree. I just take offense (not directing this at you) at tearing down Sid to make a point about Malkin, or vice-versa.

I'm against trading Malkin, unless he really wants out of here. There is also alot of behind the scenes stuff that may play into this, that we don't know about yet.

[Pensrock]

Exactly..... Kirk..... some of your posts are so far in left field I don't know how to reply to them.

Saying Malkin makes his teammates better and SId doesn't which is what you are implying is absolutely ludicrous.

They are both great players and again I am not going to say one is better than the other but some of your posts are just off the wall. Crosby has like 4 million assists but he can't elevate his teammates. Think before you post.

My question is, where is Sid getting all of his assits from if no one can play with him?

[superconan]

Everytime Malkin steps on the ice, you feel a goal is going to happen for the Penguins.

Everytime?

Yeah, I wish I felt that way more during the Finals when Geno was on the ice.

In case you didn't know or notice. The kid was playing with a terrible flu. His one linemate had a broken finger and his other linemate was playing a broken nose. There isn't much a guy can do by himself against an almost inpenetrable Detroit defense. Not saying Crosby had it made, but it was much easier for him to have a healthy Hossa playing alongside him.

Everyone is banged up and hurting by the finals. I thought Crosby had the tougher match-ups anyway.

And he had Hossa, which begs the question once again: If Sid is the best player in the world, someone who can make just about any linemate better, then why does he need Hossa where someone like Malkin can be dominant with Malone and Sykora?

I don't know. But I am going to give some credit to Crosby for Hossa's playoff success. The only time they really played together.

[Sarcastic]

Holy poop, this thread's gotten heated.

Malkin's the most complete player, talent-wise, in the league, IMO. Sidney has the heart of a lion, however, and if I have to choose between either with 1 minute to go, I take Sidney. [Ovechkin has the goal scoring ability, but I feel that at this point he is clearly (although slightly) behind the the two Pens.]

I just want to touch on something. The Malkin "quitting on a play" thing. I am now convinced that he was injured since the Philly series. Only time he finally started looking like his normal self was in the final game vs Detroit - flashing that drive and hard play that he showed earlier in the season. He looked to me like he was in pain up to that point, unable to do things he'd normally do.. push people aside, drive the net, etc..

Anyway, was there an official injury report released on Malkin's health yet? This little article is the only thing I read so far.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08158/887855-61.stm

By the way, Malkin for Pheneuf, straight up, is a joke. I'd need way more than that. Not that I'm willing to trade Malkin. But if LA is dangling Kopitar, Brown, and JJ, I'm listening - just listening.

[kirk]

Steve, my point in all of this is that what makes the Pens lethal is that they have Sid AND Malkin, two players who can control games. Once you give up one, no matter how good the return might be, you sacrifice that competitive advantage . . . hence, why I think that it's absurd to trade Malkin.

But you were able to pay for a competitve team around those two when they were only having a cap hit of appr. $3M. Starting in two years, that hit will be $20M, along with Fluery, Staal, Whitney.

If Malkin takes a discount a la Sid, then you should never, ever trade him. If he wants $11-12M, it makes it very difficult, especially if you want to keep Hossa.

It's about cap space.

Oh, I absolutely agree with that. Now the bar has changed completely. If I'm Shero, I basically tell Malkin's agent that Geno can have Sid's deal, AO's deal, or any combination of years and dollars in between. At the end of the day, I suspect that the message that stance conveys (i.e., the Pens value Geno as much as they value Sid or the Caps value AO) will make for some pretty easy negotiations. Look, anything can happen, but I expect to see a deal in the range described above and for Shero to be more than willing to give it.

EDIT: Steve and PensRock, the issue in this thread is whether Malkin can be traded for a few good young players without consequence. He has clicked with a number of players with whom Sid hasn't clicked. That doesn't mean that Sid doesn't make players better. He most assuredly helps to make great players better and guys like Army and Hilbert and Dupuis (guys with speed and/or a playing style to keep up with Sid's game) better. But, I stand by one thing: When you are on Sid's wing, you have to adapt to his game. He doesn't slow things down for Malone or Staal. He doesn't play a horizontal game for a guy like Sykora. Sid is the best up tempo player in hockey. Malkin is far more flexible in terms of his style. It allows him to mesh well and get more from a greater range of wingers.

Honestly, WTF is all of this about? You can give Malkin 9M and Hossa 7M. You even can give Orpik 3M. You may have to let Malone walk, but it's not like you can't sign a pair of guys from the Sykora class, vets willing to give up some money to be in a great situation (a guy like Straka comes to mind). Yeah, if the Pens kept Hossa at 7M and Malone and Orpik at 3M, then they'd have to shed salary for 2009-2010. So, why are we even discussing trading Geno when really this boils down to not being able to keep a Malone.

[penny lane]

It is enjoyable using this thread strictly for entertainment purposes and hyptohetical situations, but no matter what anyone says, Malkin isn't going anywhere.

Sure after 18 pages you tell us.

after 2 months of play-off hockey talk, have to continue the frenetic pace
in some manner.

[Idoit40fans]

When Sid was out, Therrien had no choice but to use him like that, to give him consistent, quality shifts at even strength, to use him a little on the PK, and to put him in his comfort zone on the PP. With Sid back and Therrien's philosophy of playing fourth line guys 5-7 minutes a game, something had to give. It was Malkin, who may as well have been walking around with a name tag that said "Sidney's *****" a lot of the time.

In a way, you are supporting my argument then that Malkin is a #1, not a #2 and needs to play and get paid like one. The Pen's already have one.

And, what if Malkin does in fact feel like Sidney's b*tch? Maybe he don't wanna play that game no mo? (Not that I know that, Malkin's Fan Club!)

I see your point about Therrien playing the 3rd and 4th line less to increase Malkin's ice, but really, he will still always be playing 2nd fiddle in every area of the game in Pittsburgh. Crosby will require more and more ice time as he matures just as Malkin will. Are you comfortable running both of them at 25 minutes a game for 82 games a season? When, then do the other lines get to play? What about Staal's 3rd line?

Pitts, what you've spelled out is more an indictment of Therrien than a comment about the impossibility of having two quote unquote #1 centers. John Tortorella had no problem in Tampa playing Prince Vinny 22-23 minutes a night and Richards for about 24 minutes a night (save the "look where it got him comment, because that was about goaltending and an unwillingness from ownership to spend to the cap). And, you can have two balance PP units and be excellent, something Montreal, the top PP unit in the regular season, showed. Now, all it takes to achieve a co-#1 on the ice scenario is a willingness on behalf of Therrien to play fourth line players 2-4 minutes a night.

Forget the results, Tortorella's playing of 2 centers at 24 minutes a piece was more about having no depth than anything.

[shmenguin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eOSDRNOLp4

certain elements of this thread remind me of this...only with malkin as the subject

[HeyNow71871929]

Why is it that Sid needs a great winger while Geno can be instrumental in turning a guy like Sykora play like he did 8 years ago and a guy like Malone into someone who likely has priced himself out of Pittsburgh? Honestly, it makes me wonder how this year would have played out if Geno, rather than Sid, had missed 1/3 of the year with a high ankle sprain.

What? Sid's been with crappy wingers (mostly Recchi and a checking forward) until the Hossa trade.

Malkin had Staal his first year and this year Malone and Sykora, which are very good wingers for a playmaking center.

I've mostly disagreed with the negative posts on Malkin in this thread but that was just too off in the other direction, imo.

Let's see . . .

Staal only has thrived on Geno's wing. He was **** with Sid.

Sykora was **** with Sid and then time warped back to Sykora circa 2000 on Geno's wing.

Malone was spotty on Sid's wing and probably has priced himself out of Pittsburgh after half a season on Geno's wing.

Perhaps all of this begs the question as to why Sid needs Hossa?

The answer IMO is that Sid plays the game at two speeds, high tempo and higher tempo. A great player like Hossa (or even Malkin out of position) will get points with Sid. A guy who plays up tempo hockey, like an Army or a Talbot, can play above himself when he gets hot hands. Sykora didn't fit that. Malone and Staal couldn't keep up. Malkin, by contrast, adapts his game to best utilize his wingers and to make 2.5M type of guys into 5M performers.

Correct. Basically, Crosby's wingers have to play up to Crosby's strengths and be able to keep up with Crosby. As for wingers playing alongside Malkin, Malkin can adjust his game so as to better fit his wingers and bring the absolute best out of them. Hence, Sid needs a top tier winger, whereas Malkin can play along side second tier wingers and make them look like top tier wingers.

Aren't we overblowing what Sykora and Malone did a bit here? Top Tier wingers? I think that's stretching things a bit. Malone upgraded his point total by 7-10 points, and, I think everyone would agree that the played his best, most consistent season (from start to finish). Sykora upgrades his point total by 10.

Additionally, To then suggest that the job Crosby did elevating Armstrong's game is somehow separate and distinguisable because he had a hot hand and plays at a high tempo is underselling that accomplisment a bit, don't you think?

I will say that I have also thought a lot about the "who fits with Sid" issue, but, aren't you basically asking him to "play down" or "slow down" to lower talent's level? I mean, you are knocking him because he can't "adapt" his game, which, in this context, basically seems to mean "play down to where others can keep up."

Well compared to other supposed "top tier players" such as Drury, Gomez, Briere, Vanek, etc... Malone and Sykora played like top tiers that are actually second tier players. They make what a combined 4 million dollars, which is a lot better and cheaper than 6-7 mil that Drury, Gomez, Vanek, and Briere each make. And I'm going above the stats. I'm talking about how they impact the team and the line they play on. Malone and Sykora compliment Malkin greatly and Malkin compliments Malone and Sykora greatly. They bring the best outta Malkin and Malkin brings the best outta Malone and Sykora.

[the riddler]

its just as enjoyable to see the amount of people who wont accept that the penguins might lose some of their core, despite the goal being to retain them for as long as possible.

we wont know what's going to happen until this offseason plays out. thats why there is speculation.

Yes they might lose some of their core down the road, but they won't this off season. Listen to the people who actually know something like Ray Shero and Mario Lemieux and not the little weasels like Pierre McGuire.

[Pensrock]

What was Malkin's ice time when Crosby was hurt compared to when Crosby played? Was it that different? I don't think it was but could be wrong.

Where Malkin was affected was the Power Play. I thought they should have went with two units especially when they acquired Hossa.

But if Malkin can't play when Crosby plays then he is too mentally weak.

The problem is Malkin takes shifts and even games off sometimes. Crosby rarely if ever does that.

When Malkin is on his game he is electric. There is no doubt about that. But when is off his game, he is invisible.

Even is Crosby is off, he is always busting his @ss and making plays in other ways.

I am not going to say one is better than the other because I think it is a stupid argument. They are two different style players in my opinion.

I don't know where you are getting Malkin >

I never said Crosby hasn't done well. Hes been extraordinary. I just think that Malkin brings more to the table than Crosby does. And that he will soon become the best in the world. The explosiveness Malkin brings every time he steps on the ice is unmatchable.

Everytime Crosby steps on the ice, you feel something is going to happen for the Penguins.

Everytime Malkin steps on the ice, you feel a goal is going to happen for the Penguins.

I will repeat something that I've said several times: Malkin is the type of player who controls games. He is more likely to do that when he's playing a lot, so that he can be more into the flow of the game. This is what people mean when they say that some players get stronger as they play more during a game.

When Sid was out, Therrien had no choice but to use him like that, to give him consistent, quality shifts at even strength, to use him a little on the PK, and to put him in his comfort zone on the PP. With Sid back and Therrien's philosophy of playing fourth line guys 5-7 minutes a game, something had to give. It was Malkin, who may as well have been walking around with a name tag that said "Sidney's *****" a lot of the time.

[Pipes Hochuli]

its just as enjoyable to see the amount of people who wont accept that the penguins might lose some of their core, despite the goal being to retain them for as long as possible.

we wont know what's going to happen until this offseason plays out. thats why there is speculation.

Yes they might lose some of their core down the road, but they won't this off season. Listen to the people who actually know something like Ray Shero and Mario Lemieux and not the little weasels like Pierre McGuire.

read above and i said that they wont lose any part of the core this offseason.

but what happens now determines what happens later. unless we sign hossa and trade him after a year

[Pitts]

I'm not sure I understand where the notion that Sid will "need" more ice time as he matures is coming from. I think Sid is more than willing to take shorter shifts to stay fresh, and, given the way he plays the game, maybe he's most effective playing right around the time that he's getting right now.

I think what I'm trying to say is, right now, he's still a kid. As his body matures, he will be able to handle more ice time and physical play. When he is dominant at about 26-27 years old, he WANT all the ice time he can get. So should Malkin. There is only so much time to divide between 2 such supreme talents. It's easy now because they are both so young, or new to America - everyone saw how Jagr changed as he grew and matured.

[Steve]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eOSDRNOLp4

certain elements of this thread remind me of this...only with malkin as the subject

I'm thinking this one might be more appropriate for this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMqSmiC_xHg

[Idoit40fans]

Not to take anything away from Malone, because he was a huge part of that lines success, but that had little to do with chemistry with Malkin and Sykora. He worked well there because he was a big body in front and he took up space. Malkin and Sykora had great chemistry, i'm not convinced there was anything like that between either of them and Malone.