Pierre saying Malkin to Kings for Kopitar, Dustin Brown

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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:02 pm

Bottomline is, if it come down to Hossa or Malkin, you let Hossa walk. Malkin is much more valuable right now and will be in the future. Gino makes us a 2 line team, Hossa makes us a one line team.
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Postby Kraftster on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:03 pm

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
Kraftster wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
kirk wrote:
André wrote:
kirk wrote:Why is it that Sid needs a great winger while Geno can be instrumental in turning a guy like Sykora play like he did 8 years ago and a guy like Malone into someone who likely has priced himself out of Pittsburgh? Honestly, it makes me wonder how this year would have played out if Geno, rather than Sid, had missed 1/3 of the year with a high ankle sprain.


What? Sid's been with crappy wingers (mostly Recchi and a checking forward) until the Hossa trade.

Malkin had Staal his first year and this year Malone and Sykora, which are very good wingers for a playmaking center.

I've mostly disagreed with the negative posts on Malkin in this thread but that was just too off in the other direction, imo.


Let's see . . .

Staal only has thrived on Geno's wing. He was **** with Sid.

Sykora was **** with Sid and then time warped back to Sykora circa 2000 on Geno's wing.

Malone was spotty on Sid's wing and probably has priced himself out of Pittsburgh after half a season on Geno's wing.

Perhaps all of this begs the question as to why Sid needs Hossa?

The answer IMO is that Sid plays the game at two speeds, high tempo and higher tempo. A great player like Hossa (or even Malkin out of position) will get points with Sid. A guy who plays up tempo hockey, like an Army or a Talbot, can play above himself when he gets hot hands. Sykora didn't fit that. Malone and Staal couldn't keep up. Malkin, by contrast, adapts his game to best utilize his wingers and to make 2.5M type of guys into 5M performers.


Correct. Basically, Crosby's wingers have to play up to Crosby's strengths and be able to keep up with Crosby. As for wingers playing alongside Malkin, Malkin can adjust his game so as to better fit his wingers and bring the absolute best out of them. Hence, Sid needs a top tier winger, whereas Malkin can play along side second tier wingers and make them look like top tier wingers.


Aren't we overblowing what Sykora and Malone did a bit here? Top Tier wingers? I think that's stretching things a bit. Malone upgraded his point total by 7-10 points, and, I think everyone would agree that the played his best, most consistent season (from start to finish). Sykora upgrades his point total by 10.

Additionally, To then suggest that the job Crosby did elevating Armstrong's game is somehow separate and distinguisable because he had a hot hand and plays at a high tempo is underselling that accomplisment a bit, don't you think?

I will say that I have also thought a lot about the "who fits with Sid" issue, but, aren't you basically asking him to "play down" or "slow down" to lower talent's level? I mean, you are knocking him because he can't "adapt" his game, which, in this context, basically seems to mean "play down to where others can keep up."


Well compared to other supposed "top tier players" such as Drury, Gomez, Briere, Vanek, etc... Malone and Sykora played like top tiers that are actually second tier players. They make what a combined 4 million dollars, which is a lot better and cheaper than 6-7 mil that Drury, Gomez, Vanek, and Briere each make. And I'm going above the stats. I'm talking about how they impact the team and the line they play on. Malone and Sykora compliment Malkin greatly and Malkin compliments Malone and Sykora greatly. They bring the best outta Malkin and Malkin brings the best outta Malone and Sykora.


I wasn't really thinking of "top tier" based on dollars, and, if we are, I'd throw Vanek's deal out because of the circumstances surrounding that signing. In either case, I'd take every one of those players at 6-7 over Malone at 4, and, I'm an enormous Ryan Malone fan. If we are looking at what someone like Malone brings beyond scoring, I think that's pretty much entirely attributable to Ryan Malone. Especially given the fact that he played that way all year long, not just once the "steel city line" was put together. My point basically was, even if you say both players improved their numbers by 10 points, I don't really believe that bumps their performance out of their status as "top six forwards" that both had going into the year.

With respect to the chemistry of the line, I'm obviously not going to argue, as you said, they all compliment each other quite well, but, I just don't agree with your implications that the performance of Malone and Sykora indicate how much more Malkin can adapt and make players around him better when compared to Sid.
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Postby DocEmrick on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:04 pm

Jack Sparrow to Captain Penguins 2008 - 2009 (e6)
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Postby Pitts on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:04 pm

HeyNow71871929 wrote:Bottomline is, if it come down to Hossa or Malkin, you let Hossa walk. Malkin is much more valuable right now and will be in the future. Gino makes us a 2 line team, Hossa makes us a one line team.

But, not if you are getting Kopitar and Brown back in the deal! :wink:
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Postby newarenanow on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:06 pm

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:My question is, where is Sid getting all of his assits from if no one can play with him?


Well anyone they put, or try to put, on his line is expected to score. Nobody is questioning his playmaking, he can make Colby Armstrong look good driving to the net. The matter at hand is: playing alongside Malkin vs. playing alongside Crosby. To me, it seems as if Crosby is at his best when playing alongisde fairly decent wingers. Malkin is good by himself most times, can take over a game by himself, and doesn't need a Hossa to play on his wing to be successful.


But you said Malkin didn't play well during the final two series because Malone had a broken nose and Sykora had a broken finger.


And most importantly, the fact that he was suffering from a terrible flu. Try playing any sport, let alone a high octane intense sport such as hockey with a flu, and you will find out how physically straining it is.


Michael Jordan scored something like 60 pts in the playoffs when he had the flu
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Postby shmenguin on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:07 pm

newarenanow wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:My question is, where is Sid getting all of his assits from if no one can play with him?


Well anyone they put, or try to put, on his line is expected to score. Nobody is questioning his playmaking, he can make Colby Armstrong look good driving to the net. The matter at hand is: playing alongside Malkin vs. playing alongside Crosby. To me, it seems as if Crosby is at his best when playing alongisde fairly decent wingers. Malkin is good by himself most times, can take over a game by himself, and doesn't need a Hossa to play on his wing to be successful.


But you said Malkin didn't play well during the final two series because Malone had a broken nose and Sykora had a broken finger.


And most importantly, the fact that he was suffering from a terrible flu. Try playing any sport, let alone a high octane intense sport such as hockey with a flu, and you will find out how physically straining it is.


Michael Jordan scored something like 60 pts in the playoffs when he had the flu


i got 700 on my math SAT's with mono and a big time throat infection. beat that you gutless russian!
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Postby Kraftster on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:07 pm

Pitts wrote:
Kraftster wrote:I'm not sure I understand where the notion that Sid will "need" more ice time as he matures is coming from. I think Sid is more than willing to take shorter shifts to stay fresh, and, given the way he plays the game, maybe he's most effective playing right around the time that he's getting right now.

I think what I'm trying to say is, right now, he's still a kid. As his body matures, he will be able to handle more ice time and physical play. When he is dominant at about 26-27 years old, he WANT all the ice time he can get. So should Malkin. There is only so much time to divide between 2 such supreme talents. It's easy now because they are both so young, or new to America - everyone saw how Jagr changed as he grew and matured.


That I do agree with, which, is one of the big reasons I'm willing to entertain all the "trade Malkin" talk.

And, I understand what you are saying about Sid when fully matured. I think at that point, he could definitely handle more time, and, it'd be great to see him play even more.

I guess I was just saying that I think Sid would play a couple less minutes if the philosophy of a successful team was to play all four lines. But, that shouldn't be an issue once we trade Malkin. :wink:
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Postby superconan on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:08 pm

shmenguin wrote:i got 700 on my math SAT's with mono and a big time throat infection. beat that you gutless russian!


Didn't Brad Richards play with mono?
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Postby Steve on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:08 pm

kirk wrote:
Steve wrote:
kirk wrote:
Steve wrote:
kirk wrote:
superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Everytime Malkin steps on the ice, you feel a goal is going to happen for the Penguins.


Everytime?


Yeah, I wish I felt that way more during the Finals when Geno was on the ice.


In case you didn't know or notice. The kid was playing with a terrible flu. His one linemate had a broken finger and his other linemate was playing a broken nose. There isn't much a guy can do by himself against an almost inpenetrable Detroit defense. Not saying Crosby had it made, but it was much easier for him to have a healthy Hossa playing alongside him.


Everyone is banged up and hurting by the finals. I thought Crosby had the tougher match-ups anyway.


And he had Hossa, which begs the question once again: If Sid is the best player in the world, someone who can make just about any linemate better, then why does he need Hossa where someone like Malkin can be dominant with Malone and Sykora?


Perhaps it has everything to do with chemistry, and nothing to do with Sid being better than Malkin or vice-versa.


So, then Malkin has chemistry with a greater variety of players? That pretty much confirms HeyNow's contention as to why Malkin is so important, because unlike Sid, who through his play asks his linemates to keep up with him, Malkin can make just about anyone look better on the wing than they are.


He asks what through his play? What are you talking about?

Malkin is one of the few players in this league who can make just about anyone look good on his line- I definitely agree.

So can Sid. Just ask Hilbert or Colby Armstrong.


And Malone and Sykora . . . :roll:


Which part are you rolling your eyes at? That malkin is great and makes his linemates better, or Sid is great and makes his linemates better?

round and round we go...
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Postby Pipes Hochuli on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:08 pm

HeyNow71871929 wrote:Bottomline is, if it come down to Hossa or Malkin, you let Hossa walk. Malkin is much more valuable right now and will be in the future. Gino makes us a 2 line team, Hossa makes us a one line team.


what if we sign hossa for 8 mill, malkin wants 10 mil next summer?

we trade malkin, get some return players who won't be gamebreakers, but will be effective, and we've still got 2 million that we saved if we sign hossa over malkin. we're a 4 line team, but it depends how good those 4 lines are.

if we lose malone, how will that effect the 2nd line? if we lose malone and hossa, then we really only have 3 players in sykora, malkin, and crosby that are true top 6 guys.

if it comes down to hossa and malkin, i'd rather have malkin. but business wise i wonder if there's anything else that they are considering.
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Postby Steve on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:11 pm

Pipes Hochuli wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Bottomline is, if it come down to Hossa or Malkin, you let Hossa walk. Malkin is much more valuable right now and will be in the future. Gino makes us a 2 line team, Hossa makes us a one line team.


what if we sign hossa for 8 mill, malkin wants 10 mil next summer?

we trade malkin, get some return players who won't be gamebreakers, but will be effective, and we've still got 2 million that we saved if we sign hossa over malkin. we're a 4 line team, but it depends how good those 4 lines are.

if we lose malone, how will that effect the 2nd line? if we lose malone and hossa, then we really only have 3 players in sykora, malkin, and crosby that are true top 6 guys.

if it comes down to hossa and malkin, i'd rather have malkin. but business wise i wonder if there's anything else that they are considering.


I think Hossa is gone, and Malkin isn't going anywhere, at least for the next season.

I think the Pens will have a better chance of finding guys like Sykora to come in and do a great job at wing for a reasonable price - than it would be to find another talent like Malkin or Sid - so keep those two for as long as we can and hope for the best on the wings...
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Postby Pipes Hochuli on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:13 pm

Steve wrote:
Pipes Hochuli wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Bottomline is, if it come down to Hossa or Malkin, you let Hossa walk. Malkin is much more valuable right now and will be in the future. Gino makes us a 2 line team, Hossa makes us a one line team.


what if we sign hossa for 8 mill, malkin wants 10 mil next summer?

we trade malkin, get some return players who won't be gamebreakers, but will be effective, and we've still got 2 million that we saved if we sign hossa over malkin. we're a 4 line team, but it depends how good those 4 lines are.

if we lose malone, how will that effect the 2nd line? if we lose malone and hossa, then we really only have 3 players in sykora, malkin, and crosby that are true top 6 guys.

if it comes down to hossa and malkin, i'd rather have malkin. but business wise i wonder if there's anything else that they are considering.


I think Hossa is gone, and Malkin isn't going anywhere, at least for the next season.

I think the Pens will have a better chance of finding guys like Sykora to come in and do a great job at wings, then to find another talent like Malkin or Sid - so keep those two for as long as we can and hope for the best on the wings...


agreed, hopefully we can find more guys like petr who want to come here.
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Postby Steve on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:15 pm

Pipes Hochuli wrote:
Steve wrote:
Pipes Hochuli wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Bottomline is, if it come down to Hossa or Malkin, you let Hossa walk. Malkin is much more valuable right now and will be in the future. Gino makes us a 2 line team, Hossa makes us a one line team.


what if we sign hossa for 8 mill, malkin wants 10 mil next summer?

we trade malkin, get some return players who won't be gamebreakers, but will be effective, and we've still got 2 million that we saved if we sign hossa over malkin. we're a 4 line team, but it depends how good those 4 lines are.

if we lose malone, how will that effect the 2nd line? if we lose malone and hossa, then we really only have 3 players in sykora, malkin, and crosby that are true top 6 guys.

if it comes down to hossa and malkin, i'd rather have malkin. but business wise i wonder if there's anything else that they are considering.


I think Hossa is gone, and Malkin isn't going anywhere, at least for the next season.

I think the Pens will have a better chance of finding guys like Sykora to come in and do a great job at wings, then to find another talent like Malkin or Sid - so keep those two for as long as we can and hope for the best on the wings...


agreed, hopefully we can find more guys like petr who want to come here.


Yup - easier said than done of course. And the downside is, that we may see alot of 2 year type deals - where someone comes in specifically to cash in playing with Sid or Malkin, and then leaves for a better deal...
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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:17 pm

newarenanow wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:My question is, where is Sid getting all of his assits from if no one can play with him?


Well anyone they put, or try to put, on his line is expected to score. Nobody is questioning his playmaking, he can make Colby Armstrong look good driving to the net. The matter at hand is: playing alongside Malkin vs. playing alongside Crosby. To me, it seems as if Crosby is at his best when playing alongisde fairly decent wingers. Malkin is good by himself most times, can take over a game by himself, and doesn't need a Hossa to play on his wing to be successful.


But you said Malkin didn't play well during the final two series because Malone had a broken nose and Sykora had a broken finger.


And most importantly, the fact that he was suffering from a terrible flu. Try playing any sport, let alone a high octane intense sport such as hockey with a flu, and you will find out how physically straining it is.


Michael Jordan scored something like 60 pts in the playoffs when he had the flu


Well newsflash, this isn't the NBA. NBA sucks. NBA players couldn't even carry the jocks of NHL players. And in terms of intensity and physicality, basketball isn't even in the same league as hockey. You aren't taking bone jarring hits every minute you're on the court like you are on the ice.
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Postby superconan on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:22 pm

HeyNow71871929 wrote:Well newsflash, this isn't the NBA. NBA sucks. NBA players couldn't even carry the jocks of NHL players. And in terms of intensity and physicality, basketball isn't even in the same league as hockey. You aren't taking bone jarring hits every minute you're on the court like you are on the ice.


It would be pretty hard to carry it while you are too busy...Oh nevermind.
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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:24 pm

superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Well newsflash, this isn't the NBA. NBA sucks. NBA players couldn't even carry the jocks of NHL players. And in terms of intensity and physicality, basketball isn't even in the same league as hockey. You aren't taking bone jarring hits every minute you're on the court like you are on the ice.


It would be pretty hard to carry it while you are too busy...Oh nevermind.


Yes. It must feel nice to be able to reuse a funny joke huh?

I mean since you can't come up with your own.
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Postby superconan on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:26 pm

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Well newsflash, this isn't the NBA. NBA sucks. NBA players couldn't even carry the jocks of NHL players. And in terms of intensity and physicality, basketball isn't even in the same league as hockey. You aren't taking bone jarring hits every minute you're on the court like you are on the ice.


It would be pretty hard to carry it while you are too busy...Oh nevermind.


Yes. It must feel nice to be able to reuse a funny joke huh?

I mean since you can't come up with your own.


You take this way to seriously.

And I did come up with my own joke. The original comment I made was a joke.

Okay, I stole it from Larry Holmes, but he was serious, I wasn't.
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Postby newarenanow on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:26 pm

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Well newsflash, this isn't the NBA. NBA sucks. NBA players couldn't even carry the jocks of NHL players. And in terms of intensity and physicality, basketball isn't even in the same league as hockey. You aren't taking bone jarring hits every minute you're on the court like you are on the ice.


It would be pretty hard to carry it while you are too busy...Oh nevermind.


Yes. It must feel nice to be able to reuse a funny joke huh?

I mean since you can't come up with your own.


You seem very angry.
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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:27 pm

newarenanow wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Well newsflash, this isn't the NBA. NBA sucks. NBA players couldn't even carry the jocks of NHL players. And in terms of intensity and physicality, basketball isn't even in the same league as hockey. You aren't taking bone jarring hits every minute you're on the court like you are on the ice.


It would be pretty hard to carry it while you are too busy...Oh nevermind.


Yes. It must feel nice to be able to reuse a funny joke huh?

I mean since you can't come up with your own.


You seem very angry.


Reading some of the things posted in this thread have indeed infuriated me.
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Postby superconan on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:28 pm

newarenanow wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Well newsflash, this isn't the NBA. NBA sucks. NBA players couldn't even carry the jocks of NHL players. And in terms of intensity and physicality, basketball isn't even in the same league as hockey. You aren't taking bone jarring hits every minute you're on the court like you are on the ice.


It would be pretty hard to carry it while you are too busy...Oh nevermind.


Yes. It must feel nice to be able to reuse a funny joke huh?

I mean since you can't come up with your own.


You seem very angry.


Can you imagine if Malkin was actually traded.

tick...tick...tick...
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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:31 pm

superconan wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Well newsflash, this isn't the NBA. NBA sucks. NBA players couldn't even carry the jocks of NHL players. And in terms of intensity and physicality, basketball isn't even in the same league as hockey. You aren't taking bone jarring hits every minute you're on the court like you are on the ice.


It would be pretty hard to carry it while you are too busy...Oh nevermind.


Yes. It must feel nice to be able to reuse a funny joke huh?

I mean since you can't come up with your own.


You seem very angry.


Can you imagine if Malkin was actually traded.

tick...tick...tick...


Well in that case, consider me a ticking time bomb then.
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Postby Kicksave on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:35 pm

To be completely honest, if we got Kopitar AND Brown in a deal for Malkin - from a pure business standpoint I'd have to consider it. Neither are Malkin-level players but it would be a damn good package. And if it allowed us to keep Hossa, it's all the better. You'd essentially be getting Hossa, Kopitar, Brown and picks for Malkin. Hossa on Crosby's wing is damn near Malkin-level.
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Postby dogwithshftyeyes on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:40 pm

none of us really know what price range malkin is asking for, sure 9 mil a year seems right to us, but he could be asking for 12 mil. we really dont know. if malkin really was asking for that much, i would have no problem making this trade.
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Postby newarenanow on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:48 pm

dogwithshftyeyes wrote:none of us really know what price range malkin is asking for, sure 9 mil a year seems right to us, but he could be asking for 12 mil. we really dont know. if malkin really was asking for that much, i would have no problem making this trade.


I agree. If he is going for $8-9M, then you don't trade him.

If he is asking for $11-12M, then you have to look at your options.
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Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:52 pm

The thing is: the pens can get this package for Malkin by simply trading his rights and having him finish this year of his contract.
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