Forest City claims mucho more tax dollars......

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Forest City claims mucho more tax dollars......

Postby bill from turtle creek on Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:27 pm

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune ... 23791.html

Here's the ammo that Rendell will use when Forest City gets the license. Somebody for Capri better refute this fast or the game is over.
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Re: Forest City claims mucho more tax dollars......

Postby dboss on Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:34 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pmupdate/s_423791.html

Here's the ammo that Rendell will use when Forest City gets the license. Somebody for Capri better refute this fast or the game is over.


Yeah, this is not good news. However, I think Forest City has just opened the door to a no-holds barred death match. The Pens need to stop playing nice and take off the gloves! And I mean, NOW!
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:51 pm

The point is, everything that is positive about Forest City, like potential tax revenue (which is bogus because all of those condos will NEVER get built), is going to get publicized big-time, while any potential bad stuff (impact studies, anyone???) is going to get hidden.

You are right about taking the gloves off. It's time to do battle.
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Postby Sleestak on Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:01 pm

Let's see... would I rather:
1. Pay to prepare the land
2. Pay for the construction of the arena

or
1. Pay to prepare the land.
2. Find the tax revenue generated by a professional sports team
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Postby BJL on Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:04 pm

Projections projections projections... an arena is a TANGIBLE asset to the city and community for 30 years. On the other hand, if the Forest City plan is going to generate sooooo much more then why don't they just commit money from that to build an arena and all of this would be settled?
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:19 pm

What are the facts behind your numbers Mr. Ratner?

""It is disingenuous to say the arena is free," Forest City's Executive Vice President Brian Ratner says in the letter. "We believe it will cost the tax payers over $115 million a year.""

Of course it costs money to run an Arena. That money comes from the proceeds of RUNNING the Arena operation. Only if the Arena operation is "in the red" (a shortfall) will it be a burden to Taxpayers.

Well, now lets be fair. The cost to the taxpayers for the new arena is a NET COST. That means you take the current and projected costs of the EXISTING facillity (Which will be very high as a 45 yearold building will cost more to mainatin than a new structure) and subtract them from the costs of a new Arena. In addition you need to factor out the INCREMENTAL increase (Notice I'm being fair aqnd only using the INCREASE not the whole figure Mr. Ratner) in revenues generated by the new facillity (amusement tax, leases, etc...) which will be used to FUND the expense of running the Arena.

All in all Mr. Ratner, I'm offened that you think we're to stupid to understand these concepts.
Last edited by ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dboss on Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:27 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:What are the facts behind your numbers Mr. Ratner?

""It is disingenuous to say the arena is free," Forest City's Executive Vice President Brian Ratner says in the letter. "We believe it will cost the tax payers over $115 million a year.""

Of course it costs money to run an Arena. That money comes from the proceeds of RUNNING the Arena operation. Only if the Arena operation is "in the red" (a shortfall) will it be a burden to Taxpayers.

Well, now lets be fair. The cost to the taxpayers for the new arena is a NET COST. That means you take the current and projected costs of the EXISTING facillity (Which will be very high as a 35 yearold building will cost more to mainatin than a new structure) and subtract them from the costs of a new Arena. In addition you need to factor out the INCREMENTAL increase (Notice I'm being fair aqnd only using the INCREASE not the whole figure Mr. Ratner) in revenues generated by the new facillity (amusement tax, leases, etc...) which will be used to FUND the expense of running the Arena.

All in all Mr. Ratner, I'm offened that you think we're to stupid to understand these concepts.


The problem is that a lot of people have their head stuck in the mud are too stupid to think to that kinda of depth. I thought this was also interesting in the article:
The Cleveland company also expects its casino to be more lucrative than stated projections from its competitors. Forest City says its casino will bring in more than $617 million a year by its second year of operation. That's $200 million more than either of its competitors have said they expect to make.

If their 'revenue' is going to be so high, why are they only giving back $25 mil. to the community. If IOC has SOOO much less revenue to work with, how are they able to fund the construction of a new arena, but FC is not?
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Re: Forest City claims mucho more tax dollars......

Postby HomerPenguin on Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:27 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pmupdate/s_423791.html

Here's the ammo that Rendell will use when Forest City gets the license. Somebody for Capri better refute this fast or the game is over.


This is such a load of crap that I'm surprised Station Square hasn't been buried under a pile of it. Their projections have Pittsburgh, a city with a declining, aging (i.e., fixed-income) city, with the TWELFTH-LOWEST median income among cities with population > 250,000 in 2004, becoming the FIFTEENTH-LARGEST GAMING LOCATION IN AMERICA within 2 years after their casino opens. That's a bald-faced lie; it doesn't even seem like a reasonable attempt to PRETEND to study the revenue benefits objectively. I'd be willing to bet that if Barden or Isle of Capri were willing to so blatantly cook the numbers, they could project a lot more revenue as well.

That wet stuff in your ear? It's not rain; it's Forest City pissing in it. These guys are lying and they're not even trying to make it sound good.
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Postby passmaster16 on Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:04 pm

Well that is what's so irritating about this. Anybody can come up with bogus numbers...especially when those numbers are given "off the record" If they wanted to state this as fact, then it should have been in their proposal. I think IoC has to come back and refute this. It is all about public perception and right now Forest City is trying to make it out that the Pens/IoC/Mario is trying to take the taxpayers money. Whether it is true or not is irrelevent because most people are not like us on this board. Most people are not educated enough about the issue to know the truth. If nobody exposes these numbers as well as Forest City's track record of not following through on projects, it will be lights out for the Pens/IoC
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Postby BJL on Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:06 pm

Really, if they want to go that far... you have to consider the tax implications of losing a major league sports team. Not just the amusement tax, the parking taxes, etc, but also the implications when all the surrounding businesses are lost.
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Postby Stoosh on Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:13 pm

EPP,

Can you possibly send your post that refutes Ratner's claims to the Trib as a letter to the editor? I don't trust that the Trib is going to take it upon themselves to investigate the matter further than this article or call Ratner out on it.

As dboss said, too many people out there will read what Ratner said in this article and take it as gospel.
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:26 pm

Stoosh wrote:EPP,

Can you possibly send your post that refutes Ratner's claims to the Trib as a letter to the editor? I don't trust that the Trib is going to take it upon themselves to investigate the matter further than this article or call Ratner out on it.

As dboss said, too many people out there will read what Ratner said in this article and take it as gospel.


Yeah... I guess it's time. I'll take some time when I get home tonight and rewrite it so that it 'flows'.

The economics and accounting stuff just makes sense to me intrinsicly. I guess it doesn't to most people. It's not hard to understand, anyone who can balance their own checkbook, or figure out if there's enough paycheck left to buy that new car, should be able to understand it.

It's kind of funny, but when I write these letters, I always add the fact that I'm a economically displaced Pittsburgh native. My Dad was born and raised here, and my grandfather moved here in the late 1910's. I was forced to leave because of economics. I'd love to come back, but the window is closing. (I'm getting to old to change jobs).

It's interesting though because I'm the EXACT demographic that Pittsburgh is SAYING they're trying to attract. I'm a High-tech manager, college educated, I've started a few companies in my time. Yet Pittsburgh has very few opportunities for me.

Anyway, back to your request. Yes, I'll rewrite it tonight and send it off, I'll also post it to the board.

As an aside, It's always nice to get 'props' from someone like yourself Stoosh. I can't tell you how many of your well thought out rational posts I've enjoyed reading on the board. It just means more to get the Kudos from someone you respect... Thanks again!
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property relief...show me the money now

Postby penny lane on Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:33 pm

all that money going to property relief; i was to see specific breakdown of
what & how much this puts into city/county residents hands.
In other words what exactly will Forest City give to me, a resident
of Pittsburgh? My guess is nothing that I don't already have. :x

Saturday evening on UPN sports show, John Steigerwald had on Sean Logan, state PA senator.
They were discussing the gaming board. John Steigerwald had sheets he pulled from google of what was an endless list of Ratner family members who made political contributions to PA elected officials. Asking why would
Cleveland -based family be concerned with the government in PA.
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Re: property relief...show me the money now

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:43 pm

penny lane wrote: Asking why would
Cleveland -based family be concerned with the government in PA.


With or without the Slots license, the Ratner family has a large stake in PA politics.

They are the primary owners of Station Square. That alone would explain their interest in PA politics.

I'm not concerned about that, as long as there campaign contributions and dealings are public and legal.

If they're proposal is better than IoC/Pens, they should get the license, and shame on Ioc/Pens. But That's NOT what's happening here.

I'd love for Saladin Odin and other 'Hill District" community leaders to come forward and support the IoC license. It would show that IoC is the best regardless of the Pens and - get this - regardless of the Arena. ONLY the IoC proposal takes a blighted area of the City and rebuilds it, ONLY the IoC proposal removes a stumbling block to Pittsburghs expansion and growth and turns it into a positive.

Lets see what happens.
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Re: property relief...show me the money now

Postby Pitts on Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:46 pm

penny lane wrote:Asking why would
Cleveland -based family be concerned with the government in PA.


It is quite obvious that they have been laying the groundwork for this coup for a very, very long time.
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Postby PensFanBryan on Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:01 pm

I really cant disagree with the article... Have you seen Harrah's plan. Even though it sucks, It will bring in more Property Tax Dollars. They are putting up 3 or 4 Buildings.

I still hope Isle of Capri gets the Liscense to see the Penguins here.
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Postby BurghThing on Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:04 pm

PensFanBryan wrote:I really cant disagree with the article... Have you seen Harrah's plan. Even though it sucks, It will bring in more Property Tax Dollars. They are putting up 3 or 4 Buildings.


And that's sure to bring in revenue, because its not like Pittsburgh has any empty buildings lying around. :roll:
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Postby PensFanBryan on Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:22 pm

ok, after further review I am disagreing with the article. My first message was after a short glance, this one is after a thinking about the article, and reviewing it. Harrah's has forgotten what I call the "penguin factor".

The penguin factor should subtract the penguin taxes from Harrah's and the other group trying to get it from their taxes, and add penguins taxes to IoC. And we all know why I come to this conclusion.

I have no idea what the penguins pay each year in taxes, but ive made my point.
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Postby Draftnik on Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:46 pm

The Penguins and IoC will have a response to this. I don't know why there is an assumption that they are idiots and unable to defend the merits of their own proposal or shoot holes in competitive proposals.

The fact still is the license will not be awarded until Nov/Dec at the earliest. There are no hearings scheduled until April. The Pens/IoC probably have some ammo up their sleeves and will have their own expert impact and revenue reports prepared, so this is nothing more than a PR salvo fired by Harrahs/Forest City.

I recall hearing they projected $100M+ more tax revenue per year than IoC at the time the bids were submitted, so all they are doing is making a press release out of previously disclosed information.
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Postby Pitts on Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:51 pm

PensFanBryan wrote:I really cant disagree with the article... Have you seen Harrah's plan. Even though it sucks, It will bring in more Property Tax Dollars. They are putting up 3 or 4 Buildings.

I still hope Isle of Capri gets the Liscense to see the Penguins here.


How do you know that?? The IoC plan calls for completely rebuilding 6-8 blocks of property above town. Who knows how many buildings are included in that expansion. Not to mention all the new retail space that will be occupied due to a new arena and slots casino re-invigorating that whole area.

Since the public ins't allowed to review any of the proposals anyway, we may never know the true dollars attached to each proposal.
Last edited by Pitts on Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dboss on Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:51 pm

PensFanBryan wrote:I really cant disagree with the article... Have you seen Harrah's plan. Even though it sucks, It will bring in more Property Tax Dollars. They are putting up 3 or 4 Buildings.

I still hope Isle of Capri gets the Liscense to see the Penguins here.


That is the problem at this point! The generally public at large believes this information. A person that I have season tickets with, and he is the perfect example because he doesn't pay very much attention to news, etc., told me not too long ago that it doesn't look good for Pens because of all the tax dollars associated with the FC plan. He thought this ONLY because of the in depth article he read about FC's plan in the PG. I was sure to correct him and point out ALL the factors involved, such as the tax $$$ lost if the Pens leave, etc., but its obvious to me that he is the very person the Pens need to reach and they just aren't doing that right now.
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Postby PensFanBryan on Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:10 pm

dboss wrote:
PensFanBryan wrote:I really cant disagree with the article... Have you seen Harrah's plan. Even though it sucks, It will bring in more Property Tax Dollars. They are putting up 3 or 4 Buildings.

I still hope Isle of Capri gets the Liscense to see the Penguins here.


That is the problem at this point! The generally public at large believes this information. A person that I have season tickets with, and he is the perfect example because he doesn't pay very much attention to news, etc., told me not too long ago that it doesn't look good for Pens because of all the tax dollars associated with the FC plan. He thought this ONLY because of the in depth article he read about FC's plan in the PG. I was sure to correct him and point out ALL the factors involved, such as the tax $$$ lost if the Pens leave, etc., but its obvious to me that he is the very person the Pens need to reach and they just aren't doing that right now.


In no way am I saying I like the FC plan. I support Pittsburgh First. Im just saying. Harrah's is planning to build 3 or 4 high rises, that will most likely bring in more property taxes. I still believe that Pittsburgh First is the better of the 2 plans. FC plans to give nothing back to Pittsburgh, other than the 1M per year to Historical Society & the property taxes. IoC plans on handing the city of Pittsburgh a $280M arena, not to mention property taxes.
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:14 pm

PensFanBryan wrote:Harrah's is planning to build 3 or 4 high rises, that will most likely bring in more property taxes.


And IoC is looking to rebuild an entire community.

You won;t be able to completely fathom the concept unless you've been to The Nationwide complex in Columbus.

This is about rebuilding an entire neighborhood not just a couple of high rises.
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convenient omission by the Trib to rile up Pens fans

Postby Draftnik on Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:23 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pmupdate/s_423791.html

Here's the ammo that Rendell will use when Forest City gets the license. Somebody for Capri better refute this fast or the game is over.




http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2006/02/13/daily14.html?f=et74&hbx=e_du

Forest City claims they will help build a new arena. If Pens fans make enough noise Rendell will release the $90M and make Forest City/Harrahs kick in ~ $150M just so they can cover all their bases.
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Re: convenient omission by the Trib to rile up Pens fans

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:30 pm

Draftnik wrote:Forest City claims they will help build a new arena. If Pens fans make enough noise Rendell will release the $90M and make Forest City/Harrahs kick in ~ $150M just so they can cover all their bases.


"Ratner said Forest City supports building a new arena for the Penguins, adding, "We would be happy to work with you on that plan.""

Thanks but no thanks Mr. Ratner. One million dollars a year is not to be considered "...working with *you*"
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