Is MT losing control?

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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby farnham16 on Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:28 am

If the Pens continue to win 1 game and lose 1 game for the next few weeks MT will get fired. I'm not saying he should be he will.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Stoosh on Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:23 am

This reminds me of listening to all the Steeler fans getting bent out of shape when Cowher used to get in the face of his assistant coaches when something went wrong, as if they couldn't believe that sometimes coaches and teammates yell at each other. Just my opinion, but I think what Therrien said may be getting blown a little too out of proportion as well.

As it was said above, no one can say one word about what's going on in that locker room because none of us are in there. That place could be no different than it was last year and none of us would know.

What we CAN see is the body language of the team when they're on the ice or on the bench. And over the last few weeks, you're seeing a team that for a variety of reasons is having trouble getting just about anything going offensively, and they're frustrated. You can clearly see that with some of the players, and it's not just Sid barking out instructions on the ice or to teammates on the bench - as he's always inclined to do - or even telling a teammate when that teammate makes a play that Sid didn't feel was the correct play to make. Malkin is slams his stick to the ice every time he gets frustrated and I don't see anyone here calling him out for his leadership. Cooke looks frustrated at times. Orpik looks frustrated at times.

And so nothing gets lost in translation, I don't think the problem rests with Sid and Malkin at all. I think Sid could be playing a little bit better on the ice, and he's made some bad decisions with the puck as well. But his effort is there pretty much every night. I'm just pointing out the fact that all the vitriol seems directed at Sid either because he wears the "C" - as opposed to Malkin wearing an "A" - or the fact that Sid is simply much more vocal. Anyone whose ever seen footage of Sid when he's miked up knows that he's always talking to his teammates, instructing them on the ice, offering advice as to where they need to be. He does it on the ice. He does it when he gets to the bench. I don't know if this somehow makes him more of a target for criticism when things go wrong, or what.

There are guys on this team right now making poor decisions with the puck...guys not playing their roles the way they should. This kind of stuff is apparent to us...it's sure as hell apparent to the rest of them. When it's been happening for some time, teammates will be more inclined to call each other for bad play or poor effort, and there's sure to be some sniping back and forth.

And I think we're at that point.

As I've said here before, maybe there are some players who just aren't fit to be in this system. I'm pretty sure Shero is aware of it. He and Therrien have almost certainly discussed it...it's what they do. If changes are deemed necessary because a couple of players don't seem to be buying into it, changes will be made and they'll almost certainly be made quickly. I can't imagine Shero is happy with some of the games he's seen lately as very little good can be taken from them. We've had a few too many of those games over the last few weeks.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Tek Jansen on Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:23 am

saveourpens wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:MT hasn't had control for a while. I've been calling for him to be fired since early September, finally someone else agrees with me. When is he going to be removed?


Has the replacing of a coach ever led to a team's turnaround?????


Uh, Washington?
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby pensfan20 on Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:26 am

Well the bad play has not gone unnoticed. Did anyone else see that Mario and his wife left the Toronto game half way through the third period? So something will happen. But who knows exactly what. If the majority of the players have stopped caring or listening to anyone, then MT will loose his job. Its what happens. If the coach cant find why the players are playing like crap and what to do to change it, then they need a new voice.

I might be the biggest scrooge ever, but anyone else think that if MT was the type of coach that many think he is, the make people accountable for their poor play, he would have made a mandatory practice this morning? Nothing says "you played/are playing like crap" then a "sorry to hear your gonna miss your flight tonight cause we are having a practice tomorrow morning" i think that would send a message to the guys. Maybe not a really good one, but a message none the less
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby columbia on Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:27 am

ru10tu10 wrote:For MT to go public with this issue says a lot - this is his way of letting the public exposure get these guys (oh, I was so tempted to type 'guy' in Therrien-speak) to stop their stupid way (couldn't resist) and just get on with it.

In my mind, Crosby should NOT be captain of this team. Let the 21-year old do what he does best and let him play hockey - have fun doing so.

Having said that, who do you choose? Malone, with his experience through the bad times and good, all with this organization, would have been a good choice. Now that he is gone, maybe Orpik, who was touted long ago as a potential C before Sid hit the scene.

A previous poster mentioned a Satan problem - I do not believe that he is carrying his weight as a top 6 forward, and still rue the fact that RS offered Hossa the dael that he did, and had to wait until Hossa made up his mind - thereby missing on guys like Tanguay and Huselius, and ending up with Fedotenko and Satan - not that I mind Fedotenko.

Look at the Pens cap situation now - how in the world was RS even going to sign Fleury if we had inked Hossa? Was Orpik just an afterthought then?


Somebody finally said it: Perhaps he isn't captain material at this point in his life
Matt Cooke is one of the few guys on the team that seems to have the qualities of a captain IMHO.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby penny lane on Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:42 am

Can a captain turn players into legit scoring wingers~ bring me that captain for Christmas.

Coach Therrien should not have spoken about the ******** and moaning on the bench; that is "room" talk. GM Shero can't be happy about that...but everybody has a temper-popping limit.

It is revisionist history to say Mario was a vocal general as a captain... wasn't the case.

Sid, Evgeni, Brooks, Scuderi and Flower ~ core, have to get their games and the collective soul
of the team adjusted.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby wallflower on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:04 pm

pensfan20 wrote:I might be the biggest scrooge ever, but anyone else think that if MT was the type of coach that many think he is, the make people accountable for their poor play, he would have made a mandatory practice this morning? Nothing says "you played/are playing like crap" then a "sorry to hear your gonna miss your flight tonight cause we are having a practice tomorrow morning" i think that would send a message to the guys. Maybe not a really good one, but a message none the less

It's against league rules for teams to have mandatory practice/skates on days that are considered breaks (ie. Christmas & the All-Star break).
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby wallflower on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:09 pm

Stoosh wrote:This reminds me of listening to all the Steeler fans getting bent out of shape when Cowher used to get in the face of his assistant coaches when something went wrong, as if they couldn't believe that sometimes coaches and teammates yell at each other. Just my opinion, but I think what Therrien said may be getting blown a little too out of proportion as well.

I completely agree. And if anyone actually listened/read what Therrien said, he sort of changed what he was saying from players complaining on the bench to players complaining on the ice. Who knows what he actually meant? He said himself it would take a long time to explain what he was getting at.

I'm not one for speculating on things I cannot possibly know the answers to so, as usual, I'm going to wait and see what happens next. (Mostly because anonymously ranting about my disappointment isn't going to do any good.)
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby T.K. on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:14 pm

saveourpens wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:MT hasn't had control for a while. I've been calling for him to be fired since early September, finally someone else agrees with me. When is he going to be removed?


Teams fire coaches b/c it's much easier to make it look like there is a change than replace the lineup. Has the replacing of a coach ever led to a team's turnaround????? Even Edzo bashers can't argue with the fact that MT had basically the same record as he did.

YEAHHHHH that never happens... look at chicago. :roll:
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby pfim on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:37 pm

Killiecrankie wrote:It worries me that I saw Crosby say to Orpik when going back to the bench a couple games ago. "you dont **** shoot that there" when Orpik put a wrist shot on net. Crosby really seems to be an ******* on the ice, I'm as big a pens fan as anyone here, but I just don't think Sid's an easy guy to play with. There is just something about him I don't like, look I am glad hes on our squad but he seems to much like a b**ch sometimes.


Well, Crosby was right. I remember that play vividly and mentioned in the game thread.

I never understood the "Coach has lost the team" arguments, coming from people outside of the team.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby The Snapshot on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:42 pm

The Pens limped to the break and put down two serious stinkers against two of the worst teams in the league. The fact is that the WBS callups have produced zero offense and have placed an even greater burden on Malkin and Crosby. The loss of Kennedy has effectively killed what was a great third line as well, so there has been no real scoring push on way too many shifts.

The lack of consistent pressure offensively (along with some pretty poor officiating at times) has resulted in fewer PP opportunities also.

Sabu started this whole thing by giving up some very precious points as he limped along waiting to be the backup again in his secure little runway seat. Those points look awfully big right now.

Since Fleury has come back, the team seems to have taken a collective sigh of relief and failed to play with any energy at all.

I see this as a series of related factors, but from a distance, their record is still not terrible if you don't focus too much on the last few weeks. What is important is that Fleury gets his game back together and that we get a few key guys back. Gill is really looking valuable now when you see what the PK does without him. The 3rd line obviously needs Kennedy. Ziggy is needed for faceoffs and energy as well. These guys are not the answer in terms of their individual talent, but their contribution to the overall flow of the team and its situational strengths and weaknesses are huge.

I do believe that Matt Cooke is reaching the end of his rope, and that he may in fact drop the gloves in practice with Satan. He speaks like a leader and he plays hard every night - which I am just guessing means he has very little respect for Satan. The WBS guys just aren't ready to help in the roles that they have needed to occupy, and when you have 3 or 4 of them dressing every night it is very hard to limit their roles to what they may be capable of giving.

I wouldn't suggest that there shouldn't be grave concern about these recent games, or that we can just wait until the injured return and accept a losing streak, but this team needs to get healthy before we start firing coaches or making drastic player moves.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Mongoose87 on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:47 pm

Karl_Racki wrote:
columbia wrote:
ru10tu10 wrote:For MT to go public with this issue says a lot - this is his way of letting the public exposure get these guys (oh, I was so tempted to type 'guy' in Therrien-speak) to stop their stupid way (couldn't resist) and just get on with it.

In my mind, Crosby should NOT be captain of this team. Let the 21-year old do what he does best and let him play hockey - have fun doing so.

Having said that, who do you choose? Malone, with his experience through the bad times and good, all with this organization, would have been a good choice. Now that he is gone, maybe Orpik, who was touted long ago as a potential C before Sid hit the scene.

A previous poster mentioned a Satan problem - I do not believe that he is carrying his weight as a top 6 forward, and still rue the fact that RS offered Hossa the dael that he did, and had to wait until Hossa made up his mind - thereby missing on guys like Tanguay and Huselius, and ending up with Fedotenko and Satan - not that I mind Fedotenko.

Look at the Pens cap situation now - how in the world was RS even going to sign Fleury if we had inked Hossa? Was Orpik just an afterthought then?


Somebody finally said it: Perhaps he isn't captain material at this point in his life
Matt Cooke is one of the few guys on the team that seems to have the qualities of a captain IMHO.


If you remove the C from Sid ight now, you might as well deal him.. He would be very upset and probably would complain like crazy and question the team.

Call me crazy, but I think we could pick up an entire second line if we dealt Sid

Tank -Geno-Sykora
Guy from Sid-Guy from Sid- Guy from Sid

Just so crazy it might work.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby WildKaper on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:52 pm

Karl_Racki wrote:
columbia wrote:
ru10tu10 wrote:For MT to go public with this issue says a lot - this is his way of letting the public exposure get these guys (oh, I was so tempted to type 'guy' in Therrien-speak) to stop their stupid way (couldn't resist) and just get on with it.

In my mind, Crosby should NOT be captain of this team. Let the 21-year old do what he does best and let him play hockey - have fun doing so.

Having said that, who do you choose? Malone, with his experience through the bad times and good, all with this organization, would have been a good choice. Now that he is gone, maybe Orpik, who was touted long ago as a potential C before Sid hit the scene.

A previous poster mentioned a Satan problem - I do not believe that he is carrying his weight as a top 6 forward, and still rue the fact that RS offered Hossa the dael that he did, and had to wait until Hossa made up his mind - thereby missing on guys like Tanguay and Huselius, and ending up with Fedotenko and Satan - not that I mind Fedotenko.

Look at the Pens cap situation now - how in the world was RS even going to sign Fleury if we had inked Hossa? Was Orpik just an afterthought then?


Somebody finally said it: Perhaps he isn't captain material at this point in his life
Matt Cooke is one of the few guys on the team that seems to have the qualities of a captain IMHO.


If you remove the C from Sid ight now, you might as well deal him.. He would be very upset and probably would complain like crazy and question the team.


There is only one scenario where the C is not on Sid's jersey, and that is if Mario comes out of retirement again, which has about as much chance of happening as me winning the powerball. Though, if that were to happen, Sid would probably relinquish the C to Mario and take on a permanent A.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Coozman1 on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:56 pm

I think it all has to do with the system that Therrien uses. Not that it didn't work in the past with young players with no experience but maybe it doesn't work with a team with more experience than a bunch of rookies. Yeo must go if he can't get the PP to shoot more and learn how to set a moving screen for gawds sake. Perimeter play sux on the PP especially when the cycle includes all FIVE players. Put somebody.. anybody, in front of the net. How hard is that? Time to retool the system. If that doesn't work, retool the staff. Malkin on the point is not the best idea in the world. He can rotate there but him and Crosby should be working the half circles to the front. We need to change things up a little more. We need a strong guy on the 1st PP in front of the net. Staal is not physically strong enough. We need a young John Leclair type that can stand up to the beeting and not get moved. That's another thing. With the new rules it's real easy to set up and not take the same beating that they took in the old days. The refs call it alot quicker now so damn it get in front and screen. FWIW
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby WildKaper on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:02 pm

It says it all about Therrien that he and Yeo want this team to dump and chase in all instances.

You have this type of talent, and you want them to play like the Minnesota Wild...

Why not go out, buy an Escalade, and then use it to mud bog and haul stuff to constuction sites. Basically the same thing...
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby columbia on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:03 pm

Coozman1 wrote:I think it all has to do with the system that Therrien uses. Not that it didn't work in the past with young players with no experience but maybe it doesn't work with a team with more experience than a bunch of rookies. Yeo must go if he can't get the PP to shoot more and learn how to set a moving screen for gawds sake. Perimeter play sux on the PP especially when the cycle includes all FIVE players. Put somebody.. anybody, in front of the net. How hard is that? Time to retool the system. If that doesn't work, retool the staff. Malkin on the point is not the best idea in the world. He can rotate there but him and Crosby should be working the half circles to the front. We need to change things up a little more. We need a strong guy on the 1st PP in front of the net. Staal is not physically strong enough. We need a young John Leclair type that can stand up to the beeting and not get moved. That's another thing. With the new rules it's real easy to set up and not take the same beating that they took in the old days. The refs call it alot quicker now so damn it get in front and screen. FWIW


Good luck trying to convince this crowd that the PP needs someone in front of the net:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29476

(From late October.)
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Jesse on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:08 pm

To say that Michel Therrien wants the team to dump and chase in all situations is grossly inaccurate.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby NJ5934 on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:16 pm

You kinda beat me to this thread. I was thinking Therrien lost control after the much publicized "hard practice" he put the team through a week ago resulted in a sloppy, half *** win against Atlanta.

I've never been a fan of Therrien, namely because I'm not a fan of the trap. The trap is something anyone can be tought and doesn't allow teams to truely capitalize on their most offensively creative players. But I have to think the team's issues are bigger than just Therrien. I think there is a leaderhip issue here and I think this team has become to used to stealing points without playing a full game. It was pretty much the case last season too. We had a pass in the first round against Ottawa and Philly manhandled the next most dangerous team in Montreal. I'm not suggesting the final run was a fluke, I'm just saying this team has become far to comfortable with outscoring opponents without outworking them. Therrien has pushed sound positional play rather than tenacity. It shouldn't be a surprise that the run last season ended when we finally faced a team that could not only match our talent but was also the hardest working team in the league.

As someone else already posted, I think Therrien will be replaced shortly after the new year. I think the owners have spent alot of money and they (along with Shero) expect this team to be an elite team in the league. This team is just a mess on the ice and there is no indication anything is going to suddenly change. Even a couple wins is not going to change the fact that this team (even when winning) is not a hardworking team. The cap itself ensures talent is pretty equally disbursed throughout the league; work ethic and commitment is what makes the top teams distinguish themselves and distance themselves in the standings. Honestly, the Penguins appear to be flat out lazy. Last night was a good example. The entire team basically stood around waiting for Malkin to win the game on his own.

If Therrien goes, I only hope Shero has someone in mind, because right now, the pickings are slim.
Last edited by NJ5934 on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:18 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:MT hasn't had control for a while. I've been calling for him to be fired since early September, finally someone else agrees with me. When is he going to be removed?


You're speaking tongue in cheek here right? There's a whole contingent of posters on here who don't believe MT is the best man for the job. We were saying it last year even through the SCF. But what good does it do to keep beating a dead horse?

As for wearing the "C", talking to your linemates, and teammates is good. But you have to make sure that you maintain professionalism. We've all had people in our lives who might have been correct in content, but their delivery was so arrogant or abrasive that the message was lost.

Leadership is a combination of understanding what the message should be and communicating it effectively to achieve the desired results.

As for what would lead to MT being fired. This group is maturing to the point where a mutiny is possible. It wasn't to many years ago that another Penguins team - led by the "best player in the league" got a hall of fame coach fired. And I don't think anyone is nominating MT for enshrinement in Toronto yet.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby wm0712 on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:18 pm

a couple of things really sealed if for me last night

first of all: why in the world did MT put sid and geno together for the first two periods against the worst team in hockey? wouldnt it make more sense to have them on seperate lines? then when we're down heading into the third, what happens? sid and malkin are on seperate lines, but wouldnt you rather have them together to try and make a comeback?

second of all: how in the world does this team only manage 3 shots in the third period when your losing the whole period? with malkin, crosby, sykora, goligoski, whitney, staal etc.. all in the lineup there is no way you only get 3 shots against the worst team in the league

MT was here before shero got here so i highly doubt MT is 'shero's guy' for this team... i believe we need a more offensive and aggressive style of coach... why is it that we have to dump it in on the powerplay every time but every other team can just carry it in on us and get set up? we have the premier offensive talent in the league and a very solid d to go along with a goalie that has the ability to steal games for you... so why not try to get into offensive shootouts with teams? i like the pens chances when there are 8-12 goals in the game because as i said our scoring ability+defense+goaltending is just as good, if not better than, the rangers, flyers, caps, bruins etc
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby pens_CT on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:25 pm

At the end of november the Pens were off to the 2nd best start in team history. Now in the course of three weeks MT has lost the team, his system doesn't work, and team chemistry is suffering? :roll: I don't see the logic behind this and its just an overreaction to the recent poor play.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby pfim on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:26 pm

pens_CT wrote:At the end of november the Pens were off to the 2nd best start in team history. Now in the course of three weeks MT has lost the team, his system doesn't work, and team chemistry is suffering? :roll: I don't see the logic behind this and its just an overreaction to the recent poor play.


No, this can't be. Stanley Cups are won in December.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:28 pm

pfim wrote:
pens_CT wrote:At the end of november the Pens were off to the 2nd best start in team history. Now in the course of three weeks MT has lost the team, his system doesn't work, and team chemistry is suffering? :roll: I don't see the logic behind this and its just an overreaction to the recent poor play.


No, this can't be. Stanley Cups are won in December.


To play "devils advocate", they may not be "won" in December, but they've been "lost" in December before. :D
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby panthers1788 on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:30 pm

saveourpens wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:MT hasn't had control for a while. I've been calling for him to be fired since early September, finally someone else agrees with me. When is he going to be removed?


Teams fire coaches b/c it's much easier to make it look like there is a change than replace the lineup. Has the replacing of a coach ever led to a team's turnaround????? Even Edzo bashers can't argue with the fact that MT had basically the same record as he did.



Actually just recently....look at the Washington Capitals firing Glen Hanlon and hiring Bruce Boudreau last year, that was a complete turnaround.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Jesse on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:32 pm

First off, the Penguins don't play the true meaning of a trap. They play a 1-2-2 swing. It's LIKE a trap, sure. But it takes your talented centers and has them funnel the puck to whichever side of the ice they see fit. When the players see an open lane (what the Penguins are "giving" them) they throw the puck there. The center swings to that side, the Winger boxes in, and the defenseman steps up. The idea being that you're suffocating the puck carrier and creating turnovers.

Turnovers, when you have talented and offensively dangerous centers, are a good thing. Every game we see several chances generated off of this system. The problem? The team isn't converting. They're either missing the net completely (Crosby's chance last night), overpassing (We see it every game), or getting sloppy and turning it back over to the other team (Talbot against Buffalo).

The easy way out for most people is to hire a coach that lets the offensive guys do whatever they want. People clamor for offensive creativity. They want the reigns let loose.

The reason we DON'T do that, and the reason we should be glad MT instilled a sense of defensive-mindedness on the team, is because that offensive, free-flow system NEVER wins cups.

If we played a wide open style of hockey, Detroit would have swept us. No two ways about it. The Rangers may have as well. We took the strength of the NYR and turned it around on them. Save the first two periods of game one, we did everything exactly right.

People think there are 100 styles of breakouts in the NHL and that the dump and chase is some kind of weird albatross that only the Penguins use. Every team in the NHL has a "get it deep and attack" strategy.

I sat next to the Asst. Head Coach of the St. Vincent Mens hockey team last night and asked him, flat out, if he thought Mike Babcock "outcoached" Michel Therrien in the finals. His response? No. You take what has worked for you, and you apply it to every team in succession. If you lose, you were either the lesser team, or you didn't work hard enough. People think this is football and there are 100 different in-game adjustments you can make on the fly when you're coaching. Unfortunately, things don't work that way.

My thoughts? Teams go through patches like this. We got off to our best start since 1995 and we're frustrated right now. There will be a game where everything clicks and we get back on the right track. Why do I know this? Because it's hockey. It happens every year. Where did this mentality that everyone has come from? Why are we all having heart attacks after the team loses? Did you forget that we play 82 games? This isn't the NFL. Hockey is a sport of growth. It ebbs and flows. It isn't just with the team as a whole, it's with the power-play, the penalty-kill, certain players, etc. That's what is great about the sport.

People used to enjoy hockey in Pittsburgh. Now they just look for everything thats wrong and harp on it for weeks at a time. Surprising considering this team was about a moving truck away from playing in KC.
Jesse
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
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