OK, let's blow it up

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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:25 am

https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/1121373

Here is a change of team for you. Obviously not all of these trades will happen but I believe some will and I think some guys we would never think to trade...Letang...cough...will be.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Southern Fan on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:26 am

Two years ago, the Caps had about 10 players that played 80 or more games. Though you get continuity, it wears you down as well.
The Pens Losing those stupid games with cellar dwellers earlier in the years puts the team in a position where hurt players are inserted into the lineup. Cullen played his best after he came back from injury. That stupid outdoor game didn’t help. Based on performance and March injuries, I’m guessing Guentzel, Crosby, Malkin, Rust, Aston-Reese, McCann, letang,dumoulin, Murray, Maatta, gundbarson, Schultz, pettersson we’re playing injured.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:31 am

Daniel wrote:
Malkintent wrote:I can't believe Malkin was so bad this year. He just had a 98 point season. How is Ovi still winning Rockets while Malkin looks like he turned into a lemon? One bad year or sudden decline?


I honestly think his hometown tragedy and back injury caused more of a problem than we'll ever know.

Not that I think Malkin's skill has diminished to the point of retirement or concern, but Ovi plays a different style than Malkin, one that transcends age.



I think a lot of production from second line in general just happened cause Schultz was gone after October and I think Kessel has become not such a need for us anymore.
Our number one goal this offseason is to fix the 2nd line. My thought is this:

Line 1: Guentzel - Crosby - Horny
Line 2: Free Agent - Malkin - Rust
Line 3: MCann - Bujstad - ZAR
Line 4: Wilson - Teddy - Simon

If you can find a trade for a C by trading one of your D you put him on the third line and bump MCann to 1st but than where does Horny go? May very well need to trade both Horny and Kessel unless you can somehow make Horny stick on line 1.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Daniel on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:47 am

Pensfan4life8771 wrote:
Daniel wrote:
Malkintent wrote:I can't believe Malkin was so bad this year. He just had a 98 point season. How is Ovi still winning Rockets while Malkin looks like he turned into a lemon? One bad year or sudden decline?


I honestly think his hometown tragedy and back injury caused more of a problem than we'll ever know.

Not that I think Malkin's skill has diminished to the point of retirement or concern, but Ovi plays a different style than Malkin, one that transcends age.



I think a lot of production from second line in general just happened cause Schultz was gone after October and I think Kessel has become not such a need for us anymore.
Our number one goal this offseason is to fix the 2nd line. My thought is this:

Line 1: Guentzel - Crosby - Horny
Line 2: Free Agent - Malkin - Rust
Line 3: MCann - Bujstad - ZAR
Line 4: Wilson - Teddy - Simon

If you can find a trade for a C by trading one of your D you put him on the third line and bump MCann to 1st but than where does Horny go? May very well need to trade both Horny and Kessel unless you can somehow make Horny stick on line 1.


I like Hornqvist on the 3rd line and ZAR as LW2 and think it's time to move on from Rust. Get Sid and Geno an actual RW. 3rd line of McCann - Bjugstad - Hornqvist is a really good line. If you like McCann on the first, fine, have McCann - Crosby - Jake and add Bleuger as LW3.

That Angello kid seemed to have a nice year and has the size you'd want from a 4C. I think the Pens need to go into training camp with several spots open for competition. Going in with no spots open for competition creates what we saw this season.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby lemieuxReturns on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:47 am

Pensfan4life8771 wrote:https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/1121373

Here is a change of team for you. Obviously not all of these trades will happen but I believe some will and I think some guys we would never think to trade...Letang...cough...will be.


I hope this doesn't come off too harsh. But just because we lost in the first round of the playoffs doesn't mean the players we want to trade are worthless. Letang + Simon for a 2nd and Athanasiou? Come on now. Letang had a horrible playoffs. I am also ready to possibly trade him. However, I am not just going to throw him away.

Kessel for Galchenyuk? He has not broken 20 goals in the past three seasons. Kessel is still a point per game player playing on an incredible contract.

Aston-Reese at 1.5??? No thanks.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Daniel on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:51 am

lemieuxReturns wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/1121373

Here is a change of team for you. Obviously not all of these trades will happen but I believe some will and I think some guys we would never think to trade...Letang...cough...will be.


I hope this doesn't come off too harsh. But just because we lost in the first round of the playoffs doesn't mean the players we want to trade are worthless. Letang + Simon for a 2nd and Athanasiou? Come on now. Letang had a horrible playoffs. I am also ready to possibly trade him. However, I am not just going to throw him away.

Kessel for Galchenyuk? He has not broken 20 goals in the past three seasons. Kessel is still a point per game player playing on an incredible contract.

Aston-Reese at 1.5??? No thanks.


I think Kessel to Colorado might be a nice fit. Not sure if him +1st would get the 4th overall, but Colorado has two 1st round picks. At the very least, start with Colorado's 1st round pick and add some prospects. No way would I want to get salary back, unless it's someone like Landeskog (who I don't see the Avs trading).
Last edited by Daniel on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:52 am

First move this offseason: Jack Johnson and a B-Level prospect (Almeida, Pavylchev, etc) to Ottawa for a 7th round pick

---Why it works?: Ottawa is 13M away from the cap floor. Mark Borowiecki is 29. All other defenseman are 25 are under. Codi Ceci is RFA who could make 3-5M. All other defenseman on the roster are under 2M. They have the cap space. They could use another vet defenseman. Giving them an ok prospect to take the contract would likely be needed, but not a 1st, 2nd, or top prospect type.
---Why the Penguins do it? Really....do we need to even ask?

Second move: Olli Maatta and Dominik Simon to Detroit for Andreas Athanisiou

---Why it works?: Detroit is in cap hell. They have 10M in LTIR space in Franzen and Zetterberg. They have another 1.8M still on the books next year from buyouts. Their defense is OLD AS DIRT. Kronwall(38), Daley (35), Ericsson (35), DeKeyser (29), Witkowski (29). Madison Bowey is 23. That's old. Athanisiou, Bertuzzi, and Mantha are all RFAs after next season. The team has lots of good young guys up front. They need to address the defense. Simon gives them a cheap forward who can do an admirable job.

--Why it works for Pittsburgh?: Youth, speed, good defensively, plays all 3 forward positions. In the past, I've brought up this same deal (Maatta for Athanisiou) and it was looked down on because AA hadn't really broken out yet. He scored 30 goals this year. I'd make the move now and add something else if I absolutely had to. If you want to get back to a speed game with youth, adding AA would be a good start.

I start with these two moves. Resign Pettersson, Riikola, ZAR, Blueger, Johnson. Decide on Ruhwedel or Prow as your 7th.

See what the interest is in Jarry, and, if you can, add a bigger piece to get another young defenseman to put in the mix with Riikola.

I then take a look and see if moving a Kessel or Hornqvist makes sense.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby lemieuxReturns on Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:02 am

Pensfan4life8771 wrote:
Daniel wrote:
Malkintent wrote:I can't believe Malkin was so bad this year. He just had a 98 point season. How is Ovi still winning Rockets while Malkin looks like he turned into a lemon? One bad year or sudden decline?


I honestly think his hometown tragedy and back injury caused more of a problem than we'll ever know.

Not that I think Malkin's skill has diminished to the point of retirement or concern, but Ovi plays a different style than Malkin, one that transcends age.



I think a lot of production from second line in general just happened cause Schultz was gone after October and I think Kessel has become not such a need for us anymore.
Our number one goal this offseason is to fix the 2nd line. My thought is this:

Line 1: Guentzel - Crosby - Horny
Line 2: Free Agent - Malkin - Rust
Line 3: MCann - Bujstad - ZAR
Line 4: Wilson - Teddy - Simon

If you can find a trade for a C by trading one of your D you put him on the third line and bump MCann to 1st but than where does Horny go? May very well need to trade both Horny and Kessel unless you can somehow make Horny stick on line 1.


For me its:
Line 1: Guentzel - Crosby - MCann
Line 2: Duchene - Malkin - Nyquist
Line 3: Rust - Bujstad - Kessel
Line 4: ZAR - Teddy - Horny

It's BS that Geno never gets anyone to play with. Only when he is completely shut down does Sully give him Kessel for a few games. Geno needs talent to play with. Would love to see Duchene and Nyquist here. Wouldn't mind seeing Skinner here instead of Nyquist either.

Where is the money coming from you ask??? Good question. The defense. We are purging this summer.
By Letang. By Maatta. By Johnson. By Gudbranson. By Schultz.
Dumo will be our highest paid.
Dumo, Ruhwedel, Pettersson, Trotman, Riikola, Prow
Look for a few bargains in FA. Lovejoy, Girardi, etc
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:23 am

lemieuxReturns wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:
Daniel wrote:
Malkintent wrote:I can't believe Malkin was so bad this year. He just had a 98 point season. How is Ovi still winning Rockets while Malkin looks like he turned into a lemon? One bad year or sudden decline?


I honestly think his hometown tragedy and back injury caused more of a problem than we'll ever know.

Not that I think Malkin's skill has diminished to the point of retirement or concern, but Ovi plays a different style than Malkin, one that transcends age.



I think a lot of production from second line in general just happened cause Schultz was gone after October and I think Kessel has become not such a need for us anymore.
Our number one goal this offseason is to fix the 2nd line. My thought is this:

Line 1: Guentzel - Crosby - Horny
Line 2: Free Agent - Malkin - Rust
Line 3: MCann - Bujstad - ZAR
Line 4: Wilson - Teddy - Simon

If you can find a trade for a C by trading one of your D you put him on the third line and bump MCann to 1st but than where does Horny go? May very well need to trade both Horny and Kessel unless you can somehow make Horny stick on line 1.


Spoiler:
For me its:
Line 1: Guentzel - Crosby - MCann
Line 2: Duchene - Malkin - Nyquist
Line 3: Rust - Bujstad - Kessel
Line 4: ZAR - Teddy - Horny

It's BS that Geno never gets anyone to play with. Only when he is completely shut down does Sully give him Kessel for a few games. Geno needs talent to play with. Would love to see Duchene and Nyquist here. Wouldn't mind seeing Skinner here instead of Nyquist either.

Where is the money coming from you ask??? Good question. The defense. We are purging this summer.
By Letang. By Maatta. By Johnson. By Gudbranson. By Schultz.

Dumo will be our highest paid.
Dumo, Ruhwedel, Pettersson, Trotman, Riikola, Prow
Look for a few bargains in FA. Lovejoy, Girardi, etc

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: YIKES. That defense is hella-bad. There is no plausible way to keep Kessel and Hornqvist AND add Duchene AND Nyquist.

Ruhwedel, Trotman, Riikola, Prow.....none of those guys have ever played a full season in the NHL for a reason. They aren't good enough to play sustained minutes in the NHL over a full season. It's OK for maybe one of those guys to be in your bottom pairing, and one to be an extra, but counting on all 4 of them in the top 6. You might as well just put Murray and DeSmith in net at the same time.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby lemieuxReturns on Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:31 am

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: YIKES. That defense is hella-bad. There is no plausible way to keep Kessel and Hornqvist AND add Duchene AND Nyquist.


Our current defense is hella-bad and hella-expensive. You lose Letang, you gain Duchene. You lose Johnson and Gudbranson you gain Nyquist.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Ohio_Pens_fan on Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:34 am

FLPensFan wrote:First move this offseason: Jack Johnson and a B-Level prospect (Almeida, Pavylchev, etc) to Ottawa for a 7th round pick

---Why it works?: Ottawa is 13M away from the cap floor. Mark Borowiecki is 29. All other defenseman are 25 are under. Codi Ceci is RFA who could make 3-5M. All other defenseman on the roster are under 2M. They have the cap space. They could use another vet defenseman. Giving them an ok prospect to take the contract would likely be needed, but not a 1st, 2nd, or top prospect type.
---Why the Penguins do it? Really....do we need to even ask?

Second move: Olli Maatta and Dominik Simon to Detroit for Andreas Athanisiou

---Why it works?: Detroit is in cap hell. They have 10M in LTIR space in Franzen and Zetterberg. They have another 1.8M still on the books next year from buyouts. Their defense is OLD AS DIRT. Kronwall(38), Daley (35), Ericsson (35), DeKeyser (29), Witkowski (29). Madison Bowey is 23. That's old. Athanisiou, Bertuzzi, and Mantha are all RFAs after next season. The team has lots of good young guys up front. They need to address the defense. Simon gives them a cheap forward who can do an admirable job.

--Why it works for Pittsburgh?: Youth, speed, good defensively, plays all 3 forward positions. In the past, I've brought up this same deal (Maatta for Athanisiou) and it was looked down on because AA hadn't really broken out yet. He scored 30 goals this year. I'd make the move now and add something else if I absolutely had to. If you want to get back to a speed game with youth, adding AA would be a good start.

I start with these two moves. Resign Pettersson, Riikola, ZAR, Blueger, Johnson. Decide on Ruhwedel or Prow as your 7th.

See what the interest is in Jarry, and, if you can, add a bigger piece to get another young defenseman to put in the mix with Riikola.

I then take a look and see if moving a Kessel or Hornqvist makes sense.

Not wanting to get ahead of myself but who do you see the Pens willing to part with to go to Seattle in the expansion draft?
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Jim on Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:53 am

"We need speed! We need to get faster! We need to trade Kessel!"

I wonder if some of you people (what do you mean "you people"???) even listen to yourselves when you speak.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:01 am

Ohio_Pens_fan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:First move this offseason: Jack Johnson and a B-Level prospect (Almeida, Pavylchev, etc) to Ottawa for a 7th round pick

---Why it works?: Ottawa is 13M away from the cap floor. Mark Borowiecki is 29. All other defenseman are 25 are under. Codi Ceci is RFA who could make 3-5M. All other defenseman on the roster are under 2M. They have the cap space. They could use another vet defenseman. Giving them an ok prospect to take the contract would likely be needed, but not a 1st, 2nd, or top prospect type.
---Why the Penguins do it? Really....do we need to even ask?

Second move: Olli Maatta and Dominik Simon to Detroit for Andreas Athanisiou

---Why it works?: Detroit is in cap hell. They have 10M in LTIR space in Franzen and Zetterberg. They have another 1.8M still on the books next year from buyouts. Their defense is OLD AS DIRT. Kronwall(38), Daley (35), Ericsson (35), DeKeyser (29), Witkowski (29). Madison Bowey is 23. That's old. Athanisiou, Bertuzzi, and Mantha are all RFAs after next season. The team has lots of good young guys up front. They need to address the defense. Simon gives them a cheap forward who can do an admirable job.

--Why it works for Pittsburgh?: Youth, speed, good defensively, plays all 3 forward positions. In the past, I've brought up this same deal (Maatta for Athanisiou) and it was looked down on because AA hadn't really broken out yet. He scored 30 goals this year. I'd make the move now and add something else if I absolutely had to. If you want to get back to a speed game with youth, adding AA would be a good start.

I start with these two moves. Resign Pettersson, Riikola, ZAR, Blueger, Johnson. Decide on Ruhwedel or Prow as your 7th.

See what the interest is in Jarry, and, if you can, add a bigger piece to get another young defenseman to put in the mix with Riikola.

I then take a look and see if moving a Kessel or Hornqvist makes sense.

Not wanting to get ahead of myself but who do you see the Pens willing to part with to go to Seattle in the expansion draft?

Hornqvist
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Puck-Lurker on Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:02 am

To any: Simon
To PIT: 4th or goalie prospect
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:08 am

Jim wrote:"We need speed! We need to get faster! We need to trade Kessel!"

I wonder if some of you people (what do you mean "you people"???) even listen to yourselves when you speak.

Started to go one direction, and I have decided to go a different way. Why are you 100% against trading Kessel? Can you give me 5 decent, thought out reasons on why you think anyone considering trading Kessel is loco?
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Jim on Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:25 am

FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:"We need speed! We need to get faster! We need to trade Kessel!"

I wonder if some of you people (what do you mean "you people"???) even listen to yourselves when you speak.

Started to go one direction, and I have decided to go a different way. Why are you 100% against trading Kessel? Can you give me 5 decent, thought out reasons on why you think anyone considering trading Kessel is loco?


How about 1. He isn't the problem. At all. He's not even A problem.

People have latched onto him as the scapegoat but at best\worst he is mid list of the good\bad. He is just an easy target for those that don't bother to put much thought into the overall picture.

And I'm not 100% against it. Everyone should be available depending on the return, even including Crosby.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:39 am

Puck-Lurker wrote:To any: Simon
To PIT: 4th or goalie prospect


Simon is a cheap 4th line option that can put up some points, hes good depth. I would keep him and let him play LW with Bleuger at C and Wilson on RW.

I wasnt a Wilson fan but he was probably the only noticable Penguin which says a lot about the rest of the teams desire
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:11 pm

I think this is my beef with Kessel. He doesn't fit anywhere on this team unless he is with Malkin or you create him a line.

If the second piece is what you want to do than that is fine...sit him down and see what two possible guys in FA/team currently would work and leave it alone.

My biggest issue with this season was how Sullivan kept saying we need to find our "Identity". I'm sorry if you are saying that crap past November you need to find your "Identity" in regards to how good of an NHL coach am I ? There is a reason Isles turned it around this year...cause Trotz is an epic coach and he made the players buy into system. If the problem is you can't get certain players aka your stars to buy into a system than either you trade your stars that don't buy in or you find a coach with a system your stars buy into.

This "core" as we so call it seems to have a problem tuning coaches out after 3/4 years of success. We did it to Therrin. Bylsma. Now Sullivan.

Don't get me wrong I love Sid, Malkin, Phil, Letang...they are all incredibly good at a sport I'm in love with and have been playing since I was 5 and still currently play but there comes a point where maybe the big man Mario needs to step in and be like guys WTF are you doing?

I'm sorry but his face said it all last night. He looked disgusted and I know Mario doesn't usually get involved in the team and watches from afar but it is still his investment and he will make his investment reflect who is he...greatness.

In my opinion I think both Sully and GMJR are on thinner ice than most people may believe.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:23 pm

Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:"We need speed! We need to get faster! We need to trade Kessel!"

I wonder if some of you people (what do you mean "you people"???) even listen to yourselves when you speak.

Started to go one direction, and I have decided to go a different way. Why are you 100% against trading Kessel? Can you give me 5 decent, thought out reasons on why you think anyone considering trading Kessel is loco?


How about 1. He isn't the problem. At all. He's not even A problem.

People have latched onto him as the scapegoat but at best\worst he is mid list of the good\bad. He is just an easy target for those that don't bother to put much thought into the overall picture.

And I'm not 100% against it. Everyone should be available depending on the return, even including Crosby.

OK, so to you, he's not the problem. What are the reasons you would keep him though?

I don't think he's the problem. I don't think he 100% absolutely must go, however, I do think that, for his cost, his age, and his production, if you can get let's say a McCann type of player....a young guy under 25 who is on the upswing, still has speed, is better defensively, can play both wings or wing and center, and can be a 20-25 goal, 50-60 point player, that I make that move. I think that if the 21-22 season gets here, and Sid, Geno, Phil and Hornqvist are all still on this team it might be one of the greatest mismanagement fiasco's of all time. This team is going to dip when Crosby and Malkin retire. I could even start sooner....maybe this is the beginning of it. There's no reason to hold on to have 4 of your 5 most expensive forwards all in their mid-30's and on the decline.

Phil had a great year last year. I thought he might go then. He had another good year this year, but, he's becoming more of a PP guy than ES guy. He's racked up back to back seasons with career high assists. More assists, less goals.....his shot totals are down...he had his lowest shot total (excluding lockout season) since his first two years in the league. There are signs that things are trending in the wrong direction for him. It doesn't mean he's awful, it just means that the team should consider moving him in the right deal.

Anyone looking for the right deal to be equal value like when we acquired him will be disappointed. I see equal value for Phil right now as:
--An under 25 year old player, an A/B level prospect, and a pick
--If you want a top prospect, then the under 25 player maybe a 3rd liner, 3rd pairing d-man type.
--If you want a 2nd liner, 2nd pairing d-man type, then prospect is going to be more of a B level guy....good not great.
--Depending on what those first two are also determines if you are looking at a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in return.
--The 4th intangible asset received is cap space.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Maestro on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:23 pm

If they go for an all-Russian team in FL maybe Geno for Trocheck?
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:26 pm

Maestro wrote:If they go for an all-Russian team in FL maybe Geno for Trocheck?

Florida would never do it.

They'd be taking on 5M more extra salary. That would actually put them in a worse position for getting Panarin and Bob.
Also, I probably wouldn't get 8 years older player for only a 10-15 point upgrade and worse defensively.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Maestro on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:39 pm

But he's won 3 Cups! :)
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:48 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: YIKES. That defense is hella-bad. There is no plausible way to keep Kessel and Hornqvist AND add Duchene AND Nyquist.


Our current defense is hella-bad and hella-expensive. You lose Letang, you gain Duchene. You lose Johnson and Gudbranson you gain Nyquist.

Then again, we just lost to a team that featured Scott Mayfield and Devon Toews (never heard of either before this series) on defense, so anything is possible with the right guys in the right system I guess.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:53 pm

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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:57 pm

If you have the Athletic, give a read to Yohe's quick post-season summary. I'd say he had a pretty good assessment of most of the players he talked about, in what they did and didn't do, and what they need to do moving forward.

https://theathletic.com/928977/2019/04/17/stubborn-until-the-very-end-the-penguins-got-what-they-deserved/
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