OK, let's blow it up

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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Fri May 17, 2019 8:50 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
steelershark wrote:Pens lose 4-3 in OT, 3-1, 4-1, 3-1 to the Islanders and its like 2010 with the Rangers. Only instead of MAF losing the series, it's Jack Johnson. wow!!

Hmmm...not sure I've seen anyone here saying Jack Johnson lost us the series. Matter of fact, I'm quite certain nobody here is saying that.

What we are saying is, Jack Johnson doesn't fit the style of play the Penguins identify with.....that his play was just as bad as the decade worth of data saying it was a bad signing....that this team has way too much cap $$ spent on defense...this team has problems generating offense from the backend....and that JJ's contract is not very good.


Image


I agree that several D have to go given their cost but HOW can anyone think Gudbranson should be one of them?

Look at his stats since he joined the Pens, given it's just a 19 game sample. 19 games - 0 goals 2 assists +7 and only 4 PIMS. ATOI 18:58. CF% 54.7

Factor in the guys intangibles, like his pedigree and his willingness to stick up for teammates and his ability to clear the front of the net, you just dont move this guy. IMO you find a slick puck moving LHD and have Gudbranson be apart of your 2nd pairing.

He's not first on my list to move for sure. His stats turnaround from Vancouver to Pittsburgh was quite remarkable, after literally being the worst d-man in GF% in the league with VAN, and bottom 5 in CF%.

But here's the picture on the larger scale:

1) 4M is a lot of money to be spending on a bottom pairing defenseman. If the guy is a 100% solid fit for your system, then maybe I'm ok with it. Gudbranson is solid, but, I still don't think he

2) His skating is an issue. Straightline, he's fine, but he can easily be beaten by most slick skating forwards that can shift laterally quickly. That's Gudbranson's biggest weakness.

3) Quite frankly, I like Gudbranson as an all around player better than Johnson. I think for the "pushback" element, Gudbranson showed more physicality and willingness to stick up for teammates than Johnson did all year. But blocks and hits and stuff by Johnson, blah, blah, blah.

4) The Penguins need to stop being enamored with "just OK." I keep bringing them up, but, I look at Carolina's defense and wish that the Penguins had something like that. All 4 of their top guys can move the puck, and do it very well, and they have some younger guys too like Bean that also fit that mold. I'm not sure why GMJR decided to listen to fans/media, or who these people were that said we need "pushback," as GMJR was directly quoted saying "You guys said we need pushback, and now we have that."

I don't think it will happen this way, if at all, but, in terms of must move these guys on defense, Johnson is #1, Maatta is #2, and Gudbranson is #3. So if we moved 1 & 2, I'd be ok Gudbranson staying on. But the Penguins need to reshape their defense and get cheaper on defense. We saw how an injury to Justin Schultz hampered their ability to move the puck from the backend....because only Letang and Schultz excel in that area. That's not that everyone else sucks, but 58 and 4 are on a much different level.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Malkintent on Fri May 17, 2019 9:16 am

Remember when the Pens were supposed to be the team with the young, cheap d corps that could skate and move the puck?
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Fri May 17, 2019 9:35 am

Malkintent wrote:Remember when the Pens were supposed to be the team with the young, cheap d corps that could skate and move the puck?

Whitney, Goligoski, Letang, Despres, Morrow, Harrington, Pouliot, and Maatta.
Whitney and Goligoski trades were good moves. Whitney was never the same after his foot issue, and Kunitz was a key component for years.
Goligoski got us Neal, which eventually lead to getting Hornqvist.
Morrow and Pouliot were pretty much flat out busts.
Harrington has been doing OK job with CBJ, but has never really broken through for a high 2nd rounder.
Lovejoy was necessary at the time, but, Despres could have done a lot of good here, I think.

I think the chances are very, very, VERY small, but if Calen Addison could come in and play well this summer and in camp, that would be interesting. Everything I have heard is that he isn't ready, but adding a cheap puck moving defenseman would be a big help to this team.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Fri May 17, 2019 10:39 am

And......Phil Kessel currently sits atop the TSN Summer Trade Bait Board:

https://www.tsn.ca/kessel-tops-first-tsn-trade-bait-board-of-the-spring-1.1307202

Maatta, btw, listed at #13. Only 15 names on the board.

I also find it interesting that there are SIX Right d-men on the list....Trouba, Subban, Colin Miller, Hamonic, Shattenkirk, and Zaitsev. Maatta is the only LD on the list.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Daniel on Fri May 17, 2019 11:10 am

FLPensFan wrote:And......Phil Kessel currently sits atop the TSN Summer Trade Bait Board:

https://www.tsn.ca/kessel-tops-first-tsn-trade-bait-board-of-the-spring-1.1307202

Maatta, btw, listed at #13. Only 15 names on the board.

I also find it interesting that there are SIX Right d-men on the list....Trouba, Subban, Colin Miller, Hamonic, Shattenkirk, and Zaitsev. Maatta is the only LD on the list.


Kessel for Trouba :fist:
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Jim on Fri May 17, 2019 11:41 am

People cry about Kessel and his "cost". On that list:

Kessel $6.8 x3
Turris $6.0 x5
Lucic $6.0 x4
Callahan $5.8
Zucker $5.5 x4
Frolik $4.3

Kessel delivers more offense than any two on that list. And, honestly, some of them aren't any more defensive or physical than Kessel either.

However, I am going to go on my usual anti-writer/blogger soapbox and say that the value of this "artical" can be zeroed in on the fact that Panarin is on it and this genius suggests a sign-and-trade. Every team has a week to talk to UFAs now and this guy goes sign-and-trade.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri May 17, 2019 1:38 pm

FLPensFan wrote:And......Phil Kessel currently sits atop the TSN Summer Trade Bait Board:

https://www.tsn.ca/kessel-tops-first-tsn-trade-bait-board-of-the-spring-1.1307202

Maatta, btw, listed at #13. Only 15 names on the board.

I also find it interesting that there are SIX Right d-men on the list....Trouba, Subban, Colin Miller, Hamonic, Shattenkirk, and Zaitsev. Maatta is the only LD on the list.


I always liked Hamonic, but from what I remember with him he always wanted to play in western Canada.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri May 17, 2019 3:25 pm

Daniel wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:And......Phil Kessel currently sits atop the TSN Summer Trade Bait Board:

https://www.tsn.ca/kessel-tops-first-tsn-trade-bait-board-of-the-spring-1.1307202

Maatta, btw, listed at #13. Only 15 names on the board.

I also find it interesting that there are SIX Right d-men on the list....Trouba, Subban, Colin Miller, Hamonic, Shattenkirk, and Zaitsev. Maatta is the only LD on the list.


Kessel for Trouba :fist:


Letang for Trouba
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri May 17, 2019 3:29 pm

From Eklund FWIW

On Kessel...
Source: It's either Kessel or Malkin.
The Kings are all about Phil Kessel(e4) I have that from so many sources. Arizona and Tocchet is a strong possibility though...the two get along really well...
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Jim on Fri May 17, 2019 4:35 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:From Eklund FWIW

On Kessel...
Source: It's either Kessel or Malkin.
The Kings are all about Phil Kessel(e4) I have that from so many sources. Arizona and Tocchet is a strong possibility though...the two get along really well...


There is literally nobody on the Kings NHL roster that I would want in a Kessel trade. I admit that I don't know about King's prospects, but I've seen too many busts for to care about that.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri May 17, 2019 7:24 pm

Jim wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:From Eklund FWIW

On Kessel...
Source: It's either Kessel or Malkin.
The Kings are all about Phil Kessel(e4) I have that from so many sources. Arizona and Tocchet is a strong possibility though...the two get along really well...


There is literally nobody on the Kings NHL roster that I would want in a Kessel trade. I admit that I don't know about King's prospects, but I've seen too many busts for to care about that.


Exactly. I'd trade Kessel to the Kings for the 5th overall pick, if that's off the table theres nothing else there.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Fri May 17, 2019 8:33 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
Jim wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:From Eklund FWIW

On Kessel...
Source: It's either Kessel or Malkin.
The Kings are all about Phil Kessel(e4) I have that from so many sources. Arizona and Tocchet is a strong possibility though...the two get along really well...


There is literally nobody on the Kings NHL roster that I would want in a Kessel trade. I admit that I don't know about King's prospects, but I've seen too many busts for to care about that.


Exactly. I'd trade Kessel to the Kings for the 5th overall pick, if that's off the table theres nothing else there.

Agreed. That is one type of deal that would be acceptable for Kessel. If you could get someone like Dach, Turcotte, or Boldy, who might be able to earn a spot on the wing out of camp. If that were to happen, and you can move out some defensive space, then you could go after an Eberle, Nyquist, Skinner type to fill the Phil hole.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Owchar76 on Fri May 17, 2019 8:41 pm

Jim wrote:People cry about Kessel and his "cost". On that list:

Kessel $6.8 x3
Turris $6.0 x5
Lucic $6.0 x4
Callahan $5.8
Zucker $5.5 x4
Frolik $4.3

Kessel delivers more offense than any two on that list. And, honestly, some of them aren't any more defensive or physical than Kessel either.

However, I am going to go on my usual anti-writer/blogger soapbox and say that the value of this "artical" can be zeroed in on the fact that Panarin is on it and this genius suggests a sign-and-trade. Every team has a week to talk to UFAs now and this guy goes sign-and-trade.


Don't recall anyone complaining about Kessel's "cost". Maybe they have and I haven't seen it, but I don't remember much of it at all. People have complained about his disappearing act at times or his lazy play, but if there's one good thing about Kessel, it is his cost. It's pretty damn good value. I'm not sure where this complaining is coming from.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby stonewizard51 on Sat May 18, 2019 7:41 am

Last year was Kessel's best point wise. This year he tied his 2nd best points total. I don't see him ever being a 40+ goal scorer but I have been known to be wrong. He has come close a couple of times. Dollar wise, IMHO, he's doing what he's being paid to do. Sure he disappeared at times but then again so did most of the team as evidence most recently the playoffs. I like Phil and hope he gets over whatever funk he's been in. It certainly isn't good for him or the Pens.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat May 18, 2019 8:11 am

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Jim wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:From Eklund FWIW

On Kessel...
Source: It's either Kessel or Malkin.
The Kings are all about Phil Kessel(e4) I have that from so many sources. Arizona and Tocchet is a strong possibility though...the two get along really well...


There is literally nobody on the Kings NHL roster that I would want in a Kessel trade. I admit that I don't know about King's prospects, but I've seen too many busts for to care about that.


Exactly. I'd trade Kessel to the Kings for the 5th overall pick, if that's off the table theres nothing else there.

Agreed. That is one type of deal that would be acceptable for Kessel. If you could get someone like Dach, Turcotte, or Boldy, who might be able to earn a spot on the wing out of camp. If that were to happen, and you can move out some defensive space, then you could go after an Eberle, Nyquist, Skinner type to fill the Phil hole.


Skinner is a guy that will likely cost too much and I'm not sure is interested in coming here. Whoever the Pens would get they would need to fit in on Malkin's LW.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Ohio_Pens_fan on Sat May 18, 2019 10:47 am

Anybody have any idea who Vegas will be making available since they are already over the cap? I know it has no possibility but would you swap Murray for Fleury? Would you want Karlsson here? Sorry, only questions here, no answers.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat May 18, 2019 11:58 am

Ohio_Pens_fan wrote:Anybody have any idea who Vegas will be making available since they are already over the cap? I know it has no possibility but would you swap Murray for Fleury? Would you want Karlsson here? Sorry, only questions here, no answers.


They weren't happy with Nick Holden or Colin Miller. I could see one or both going.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby cojac on Sat May 18, 2019 3:38 pm

I’d do a Maatta for Miller. One of the other RD would need moved then. Maybe Schultz since he’s an UFA after next season and could bring a solid return.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Owchar76 on Sat May 18, 2019 4:53 pm

Ohio_Pens_fan wrote:Anybody have any idea who Vegas will be making available since they are already over the cap? I know it has no possibility but would you swap Murray for Fleury? Would you want Karlsson here? Sorry, only questions here, no answers.


Why on earth would you want to swap Murray for Fleury? Fleury makes 7 million a season the next 3. Murray makes 3.75 and is RFA after next year.

Fleury was .913 this year in the regular season and .909 in the playoffs. Murray was .919 this year and .906 in the playoffs. Nothing there screams out that we should be jumping on a guy that makes 7 million a season for the next 3.

Karlsson is due for a contract no? You just saw him go from 43 goals to 24. A dropoff of 22 points and he went from a plus 49 to a plus 1. What a stupid stat lol. He shot 23.4% last season and dropped to 14% this season. Who could have seen that coming? :D
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Daniel on Sat May 18, 2019 5:47 pm

Owchar76 wrote:
Ohio_Pens_fan wrote:Anybody have any idea who Vegas will be making available since they are already over the cap? I know it has no possibility but would you swap Murray for Fleury? Would you want Karlsson here? Sorry, only questions here, no answers.


Why on earth would you want to swap Murray for Fleury? Fleury makes 7 million a season the next 3. Murray makes 3.75 and is RFA after next year.

Fleury was .913 this year in the regular season and .909 in the playoffs. Murray was .919 this year and .906 in the playoffs. Nothing there screams out that we should be jumping on a guy that makes 7 million a season for the next 3.

Karlsson is due for a contract no? You just saw him go from 43 goals to 24. A dropoff of 22 points and he went from a plus 49 to a plus 1. What a stupid stat lol. He shot 23.4% last season and dropped to 14% this season. Who could have seen that coming? :D


That’s a huge reason I’d rather trade DeSmith over Jarry. Unless the Penguins don’t view Jarry as an NHL caliber starters or his RFA demands are too high, I’d rather go into next season with Murray and Jarry as the two goalies. I have no issues with Murray and think he is a number one goalie, but he could end up making more money than the cap allows after next season.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun May 19, 2019 7:53 am

Interesting idea in the Pensburgh article

Rutherford has also paid lip service to the 2019 draft, and per The Athletic’s Rob Rossi may be seeking further high picks if possible. Minnesota owns the 12th overall pick in the draft.

Say a proposed deal goes down that would send Kessel and Maatta to Minnesota for Zucker and Minnesota’s first rounder going back to Pittsburgh.

Which side says no?

I think the Pens need a little more to make that a reality.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Steve Dave on Sun May 19, 2019 8:13 am

Jim wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:From Eklund FWIW

On Kessel...
Source: It's either Kessel or Malkin.
The Kings are all about Phil Kessel(e4) I have that from so many sources. Arizona and Tocchet is a strong possibility though...the two get along really well...


There is literally nobody on the Kings NHL roster that I would want in a Kessel trade. I admit that I don't know about King's prospects, but I've seen too many busts for to care about that.

What about:

LAK: Kessel
PIT: Kempe, Wagner, #22 Pick

Kempe and Wagner are young, fast and good on the forecheck, Pens get cap space to go after a free agent and then could package #21 and #22 picks (and possibly Maatta) for a higher pick and additional cap space.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun May 19, 2019 9:21 am

Steve Dave wrote:
Jim wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:From Eklund FWIW

On Kessel...
Source: It's either Kessel or Malkin.
The Kings are all about Phil Kessel(e4) I have that from so many sources. Arizona and Tocchet is a strong possibility though...the two get along really well...


There is literally nobody on the Kings NHL roster that I would want in a Kessel trade. I admit that I don't know about King's prospects, but I've seen too many busts for to care about that.

What about:

LAK: Kessel
PIT: Kempe, Wagner, #22 Pick

Kempe and Wagner are young, fast and good on the forecheck, Pens get cap space to go after a free agent and then could package #21 and #22 picks (and possibly Maatta) for a higher pick and additional cap space.


I would insist on their #5 pick if they want Kessel. The Pens dont need to move him, and that deal with the Kings isnt a clear win for the Pens.

The Zucker trade above is interesting because you get a guy who scored 30+ goals and you also clear over 5M in space plus get a top 15 pick in this years deep draft.

If you built out a roster looking at the left side and center you'd have
Guentzel- Crosby
Zucker - Malkin
McCann - Bjugstad
ZAR - Bleuger

That is a good foundation and the Pens could clear even more space to revamp the right side if they move any combination of JJ, Rust and Hornqvist.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby KG on Sun May 19, 2019 10:44 am

In his tenure as Pens GM JR has been much better at making trades then signing UFA’s. Granted he never had a lot of cap space to spend free agents on, but his trade record is much better.

Does he trade Phill for a high first round pick and use that money saved in free agency? Or does he trade player for player? Zucker, PK etc.

One thing JR should do is package JJ with Phill.

Phill and JJ to LA for 5th overall and Alec Martinez. Then trade Maatta for Athanasiou. Use Kessel money saved on a top 6 forward. If only it was that easy...
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby ville5 on Sun May 19, 2019 11:24 am

Daniel wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:
Ohio_Pens_fan wrote:Anybody have any idea who Vegas will be making available since they are already over the cap? I know it has no possibility but would you swap Murray for Fleury? Would you want Karlsson here? Sorry, only questions here, no answers.


Why on earth would you want to swap Murray for Fleury? Fleury makes 7 million a season the next 3. Murray makes 3.75 and is RFA after next year.

Fleury was .913 this year in the regular season and .909 in the playoffs. Murray was .919 this year and .906 in the playoffs. Nothing there screams out that we should be jumping on a guy that makes 7 million a season for the next 3.

Karlsson is due for a contract no? You just saw him go from 43 goals to 24. A dropoff of 22 points and he went from a plus 49 to a plus 1. What a stupid stat lol. He shot 23.4% last season and dropped to 14% this season. Who could have seen that coming? :D


That’s a huge reason I’d rather trade DeSmith over Jarry. Unless the Penguins don’t view Jarry as an NHL caliber starters or his RFA demands are too high, I’d rather go into next season with Murray and Jarry as the two goalies. I have no issues with Murray and think he is a number one goalie, but he could end up making more money than the cap allows after next season.

Agree. Besides, DeSmith is a backup. At best. Jarry "potentially" could still turn into a starter.
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