If Whitney gets anymore worthless....

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Postby Doogs on Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:18 am

Oh... I forgot...

Whitney sucks!!!

Does that make the post fit better?




And I hate Avery, no reason, I just do.
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Postby cerp66 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:24 am

Jesse wrote:I laugh so hard when people defend Ryan Whitney's defensive play with offensive numbers.

Give me a break. This guy was one of the worst players on the Ice tonight defensivley. And has been for the last three games.

Read the freaking game thread. Everyone is on his rear. He's playing like total garbage.

Sometimes I wonder if people even watch the games...



They watch the games....they just don't understand what they are seeing. :wink:
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Postby brwi on Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:35 am

I agree with Draftnik that there is a recent trend where the most disciplined and "system-oriented" teams are focusing on dumping it at Sydor and pounding him rather easily off the puck. This forces RW to react and play defense, not his forte whatsoever. The basic problem is that Whitney-Sydor on paper and in reality is obviously the D an opponent wants to attack of all the pairings.

While Whitney will have an atrocious game like last night some and the fact that if his offensive production isn't more than solid he's worthless in the NHL, the bigger problem is that Sydor and Whitney are a pairing done by necessity due to injuries and are a poor tandem. Once Scuderi returns, MT suddenly has some flexibility. Right now, the only option is to bench one of the them in favor os Nas, and I don't see what is accomplished there besides some punishment that still leaves your team weaker.

RW still has potential to improve, maybe a little at least. Sydor is on the downside and is a big liability on the ice in his own end. Seems to me that once Scuds returns, Sydor is first to see the press box. If RW doesn't get it after that, give him a turn there too.

Brad
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Postby penny lane on Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:35 am

Freaky to see something continued from 2006!

Was expecting a more veteran response from all
of the penguins in being able to match the intensity from the NYR.
That is the missing component needed for the play-offs.

With Ryan Whitney; still time for him to redeem his season.
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Postby steelcity8687 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:52 am

you don't have to read all 11 pages.....i began to and became outraged at someone for claiming that Whitney was a +2 for the night....HAHAHA

I was thinking......."I saw Whitney get beat at least 4 times and i just caught the highlights."
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Postby Guinness on Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:56 am

brwi wrote:I agree with Draftnik that there is a recent trend where the most disciplined and "system-oriented" teams are focusing on dumping it at Sydor and pounding him rather easily off the puck. This forces RW to react and play defense, not his forte whatsoever. The basic problem is that Whitney-Sydor on paper and in reality is obviously the D an opponent wants to attack of all the pairings.

While Whitney will have an atrocious game like last night some and the fact that if his offensive production isn't more than solid he's worthless in the NHL, the bigger problem is that Sydor and Whitney are a pairing done by necessity due to injuries and are a poor tandem. Once Scuderi returns, MT suddenly has some flexibility. Right now, the only option is to bench one of the them in favor os Nas, and I don't see what is accomplished there besides some punishment that still leaves your team weaker.

RW still has potential to improve, maybe a little at least. Sydor is on the downside and is a big liability on the ice in his own end. Seems to me that once Scuds returns, Sydor is first to see the press box. If RW doesn't get it after that, give him a turn there too.

Brad


Agreed, Brad. This is very reasonable.

It's understandable for us fans to overreact to a game, or a string of games. I'm just glad the organization doesn't.
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Postby SoupOrSam on Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:15 am

I have just been informed by my sources that there was a:

Secret Meeting
==========
Where: Grille 36 (weird huh?)
When: 3/19/08 @ 7:30am
Who: RS, MT, RW

I am told that there was an audiotape transcript leaked...

RS: "Whit, I need more out of you ya big guy."
RW: "I know, I know, it's just a slump, but I'm going to work at it, and we'll come together hopefully..."
RS: "It surely is, a hell of a slump. The slump is costing me $4mill, start lighting the lamp, give me some of that Norris magic."
RW: "I'll turn it around, I'll make crisper passes and better decisions. My passes will be plentiful like cookies to kids."
MT: " ::poof:: Hey, you like 6'4 big soff chip ahoy cookie, but hey ::poof:: "
RW: "I don't appreciate that Mike, I'm working hard..."
MT: "Yeah but you soff like cookie you want to pass, hey."
RS: "Just as long as I'm not the milkman getting milked for $4mill. Just make sure your cookies are dunked in the right net."
MT: "Hey, you gonna get better sometime right? Someday. :poof:: Hey, what I know. It take lot of guy to help team win, but maybe sometime one to lose..."
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Postby edog on Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:16 am

kirk wrote:
Draftnik wrote:The criticism is always directed at Whitney. His stupid pass on the 3rd NYR goal certainly ended the game, but 2-2 score flattered the Pens. Conks was terrible on the 1st 2 goals. Whit the 3rd. Letang the 4th. Sydor, Malkin, and Malone (too high to take the pass) on the 5th.

The entire team was destroyed tonight. I wouldn't argue that Whitney was the worst player, but there isn't one Penguin that matched the effort of the NYR's least intense player tonight.


Hey, Draftnik, was it the matching of the intensity alone? I mean, I'm not excusing the Pens effort. It was pretty bad. But, I saw something else when I watched how the Rangers forechecked the Pens breakout:

Tom Renney designed that forecheck to deal with the Pens D to D to C breakout. They were jumping everything. Put another way, Renney put his players into positions to make plays. And, if that was the case, then that means that Therrien, through his unwillingness or inability to adjust, was not putting his players into position to make plays.

So, here's the question: If I tie one hand behind your back and then say "o'k, let's fight" and then proceed to pummel you, have I pummeled you because you didn't try or because you were at a competitive disadvantage?

I swear, when the Pens play certain teams that employ specific systems (NZT for example) or against a team whose coach game plans, we always seem to have this situation where the Pens look like everyone is out of position all of the time. A situation that wide spread-- or perhaps more precisely that common to these types of games-- suggests to me that the issue tonight went beyond the effort.


one of the easier ways to break this forecheck is to have the defensemen reverse the flow of the puck after F1 commits.....by doing so, you open up the other side of the ice......even if F1 moves over to cover the weak side, you just took F2 & F3 out of the equation & defeated the mismatch....
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Postby edog on Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:17 am

Steve wrote:Some of you are being too critical of Whitney. He's an offensive defensman, he's not going to fair well against power forwards crashing the net, like Marty Stratka tonight, for example....


:lol:
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Postby edog on Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:22 am

mikey287 wrote:Well, I'll say this...I'm a big "stick by your prospects" guy...I'm like that with Fleury, I was like that with Kraft, I was like that with Lupaschuk, etc. I really support developing young players, and I don't jump ship on players too early (never once have I tried to trade Fleury here, I always back him), prospects take time to develop, goalies and d-men especially...and when Whitney sucked and edog, primarily, tore him apart, I stuck by Whitney, citing that he hasn't even played 100 NHL games yet, it's his first pro-season, yada, yada...

That said...I'm concerned...I thought he would have progressed more from being a strictly offensive guy by now...it's disappointing, and it's hard to swallow on a team that has Gonchar, Letang and Goligoski on the way...

Whitney, barring a miracle playoff performance, seems like a great candidate to be moved on draft day...before everyone realizes how atrocious he has been defensively throughout his career...

And, I mean, these guys have their place...I mean, now we know how Oilers fans felt when Marc-Andre Bergeron made 2-on-1's a regularity, or how Leaf fans feel when they see Bryan McCabe waddle on to the ice, or how Habs fans felt when Sheldon Souray got walked in every game he'd play against Jason Spezza...

But something has to give here, with the moves that Shero is making, he is apparently serious about a championship sooner rather than later...I don't feel we can accomplish that with 4 offensive-minded, 2 or 3 offensive-only defensemen on the team (Whit, Sarge, Goligoski)...

The most valuable to the "outside world" is Whitney (well, excluding Letang in all likelihood, but he's untouchable),,,and he seems to be our biggest liability, but does rack up the points...

We are weak in the coming draft:
2008:
4th (Pit)
5th (Pit)
6th (Pit)
7th (Pit)

2009:
1st (Pit)
2nd (Pit)
3rd (Pit)
4th (Pit)
6th (Pit)
7th (Pit)

As I said before, I would love a decent (3/4) defensive defenseman that can handle the puck well...like a Henrik Tallinder type or Fedor Tyutin type...and a draft pick in the first 100 picks of '08, or a decent pick in 2009 (which is supposed to be a draft comparable to 2003 and 1979)...

Uncharacteristically, but only because it's a position of strength for us already, trade Whitney if the return is as great as I think it would be...


good to see you are finally beginning to see the light mikey..... :lol:

I've said this before....Letang is everything Norris Trophy is hyped to be.....the problem is, they signed him to that ridiculous extension, which will make his trade value plummet..... :cry:
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Postby AlexPKeaton on Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:29 am

8771equals1337 wrote:I have just been informed by my sources that there was a:

Secret Meeting
==========
Where: Grille 36 (weird huh?)
When: 3/19/08 @ 7:30am
Who: RS, MT, RW

I am told that there was an audiotape transcript leaked...

RS: "Whit, I need more out of you ya big guy."
RW: "I know, I know, it's just a slump, but I'm going to work at it, and we'll come together hopefully..."
RS: "It surely is, a hell of a slump. The slump is costing me $4mill, start lighting the lamp, give me some of that Norris magic."
RW: "I'll turn it around, I'll make crisper passes and better decisions. My passes will be plentiful like cookies to kids."
MT: " ::poof:: Hey, you like 6'4 big soff chip ahoy cookie, but hey ::poof:: "
RW: "I don't appreciate that Mike, I'm working hard..."
MT: "Yeah but you soff like cookie you want to pass, hey."
RS: "Just as long as I'm not the milkman getting milked for $4mill. Just make sure your cookies are dunked in the right net."
MT: "Hey, you gonna get better sometime right? Someday. :poof:: Hey, what I know. It take lot of guy to help team win, but maybe sometime one to lose..."


:lol: :lol:
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Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:35 am

remember when MT called out whitney for his PK performance and it created a swell of pro-whitney support

those guys appear to have gone by
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Postby Eismann on Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:40 am

edog wrote:
Steve wrote:Some of you are being too critical of Whitney. He's an offensive defensman, he's not going to fair well against anyone with a pulse, even Colby for example....


:lol:


Fixt.
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Postby Steve on Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:49 am

Eismann wrote:
edog wrote:
Steve wrote:Some of you are being too critical of Whitney. He's an offensive defensman, he's not going to fair well against anyone with a pulse, even Colby for example....


:lol:


Fixt.


Lies! We had a moment of silence a few weeks back for Colby, so he doesn't have a pulse.

Of course, Colby still could have dominiated in front of our net last night..... Weekend at Bernie's style....

This is where we miss Sid in the lockerroom, no way does he put up with this - most of the team took the night off, last night...
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Postby newarenanow on Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:49 am

So, did Whitney have a bad game last night? :shock:
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Postby penny lane on Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:53 am

so we're agreed, the Dads' would have done better!
:) Hey, I think some of their Mothers' would have skated harder.
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Postby Benny206 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:57 am

Hopefully, when Scuds returns things get better. Eaton, Scuderi, & now Orpik play great when paired with Gonch. Orpik & now Sydor struggle when paired with Whit. It is not by accident.
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:32 am

edog wrote:
bill from turtle creek wrote:Luckily, Whitney will not be traded. RS is a lot better at evaluating talent, and is a lot more patient, than anybody here.

There's a better chance of the Pirates winning the pennant than Whitney being traded.


as soon as Whitney starts showing some talent, we'll rethink that statement.....this guy is nothing more than a leech on this team.....he let Marty fricking Staka beat him in front.....how much more evidence do you need.....


I can't defend Whitney last night, I admit. Of course, the entire team sucked, and as has been already highlighted, his pairing with Sydor simply does not work (although it must have been hard to anticipate that they would look as bad as they do). Other teams are not stupid, and they know how to exploit weaknesses. Renney did a great job last night.

If he continues to look like he did last night (and in the playoffs, he will certainly continue to see this kind of pressure directed towards him and his partner), maybe I'll change my tune. In the best of all worlds, though, it is in the Pens' best interest to figure out a way to either develop his defensive game better, or get him a partner that protects him, rather than trade him.
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Postby PenguinSteve-o on Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:47 am

one of whitneys worst games ive seen him play. and that is not counting the horrible pass to the middle of the ice.
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Postby kirk on Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:50 am

Paul Baxter wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Well, I'll say this...I'm a big "stick by your prospects" guy...I'm like that with Fleury, I was like that with Kraft, I was like that with Lupaschuk, etc. I really support developing young players, and I don't jump ship on players too early (never once have I tried to trade Fleury here, I always back him), prospects take time to develop, goalies and d-men especially...and when Whitney sucked and edog, primarily, tore him apart, I stuck by Whitney, citing that he hasn't even played 100 NHL games yet, it's his first pro-season, yada, yada...

That said...I'm concerned...I thought he would have progressed more from being a strictly offensive guy by now...it's disappointing, and it's hard to swallow on a team that has Gonchar, Letang and Goligoski on the way...

Whitney, barring a miracle playoff performance, seems like a great candidate to be moved on draft day...before everyone realizes how atrocious he has been defensively throughout his career...

And, I mean, these guys have their place...I mean, now we know how Oilers fans felt when Marc-Andre Bergeron made 2-on-1's a regularity, or how Leaf fans feel when they see Bryan McCabe waddle on to the ice, or how Habs fans felt when Sheldon Souray got walked in every game he'd play against Jason Spezza...

But something has to give here, with the moves that Shero is making, he is apparently serious about a championship sooner rather than later...I don't feel we can accomplish that with 4 offensive-minded, 2 or 3 offensive-only defensemen on the team (Whit, Sarge, Goligoski)...

The most valuable to the "outside world" is Whitney (well, excluding Letang in all likelihood, but he's untouchable),,,and he seems to be our biggest liability, but does rack up the points...

We are weak in the coming draft:
2008:
4th (Pit)
5th (Pit)
6th (Pit)
7th (Pit)

2009:
1st (Pit)
2nd (Pit)
3rd (Pit)
4th (Pit)
6th (Pit)
7th (Pit)

As I said before, I would love a decent (3/4) defensive defenseman that can handle the puck well...like a Henrik Tallinder type or Fedor Tyutin type...and a draft pick in the first 100 picks of '08, or a decent pick in 2009 (which is supposed to be a draft comparable to 2003 and 1979)...

Uncharacteristically, but only because it's a position of strength for us already, trade Whitney if the return is as great as I think it would be...


Mikey, excellent post!!! You are absolutely spot on! I agree with everything you said. Like you, I was a big proponent of Whitney when he first came up, but his defensive play is so bad that it more than negates any positives with his offensive play. I really want Shero to trade him for a high pick in this year's draft. Based on his age and rep as a top offensive defenseman, I think Shero should be able to get a 1st round pick for him. There is another good reason to trade Whitney for a draft pick this year: It frees up more money for the other key players we need to sign.

Whitney really is a disgrace as an NHL defenseman. He goes down in my book as the softest 6'4" 215 lb NHL player ever!!!


I still say that his being soft and having coverage issues isn't the problem. Oh, it's a problem in the sense that it's bad, but you kind of expect that. What you don't expect and can't accept from a 4M per year offensive defenseman is a guy who has been as mind-numbingly dumb in terms of his performance with the puck.
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Postby Mad City Mike on Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:18 am

kirk wrote:
I still say that his being soft and having coverage issues isn't the problem. Oh, it's a problem in the sense that it's bad, but you kind of expect that. What you don't expect and can't accept from a 4M per year offensive defenseman is a guy who has been as mind-numbingly dumb in terms of his performance with the puck.


I don't totally agree. I don't care if he is the softest 6'4", 215 lb defenseman ever. His job is not to be a crushing hitter. But his job is to be smart in his own end, and he flat out has regressed in this area. I have been one of his biggest boosters on here, and have never advocated them giving up on him. But I am really beginning to wonder. As you say, he has gotten worse in terms of decision-making. He is adding nothing to the power play. But then you add in his atrocious positional play in his own end, and that has me rethinking my support. All I ask of an offensive defenseman is to be positionally sound in hios own end and make an effort to cover guys in front. He fails at both right now. If they think Goligoski is ready, then maybe you do shop him on draft day. because those above are right, you can't win with four offense-first defenseman in your top 6.
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:39 am

Mad City Mike wrote:you can't win with four offense-first defenseman in your top 6.


Does any more need to be said?
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Postby kirk on Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:55 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Mad City Mike wrote:you can't win with four offense-first defenseman in your top 6.


Does any more need to be said?


Detroit this season . . . Nashville last season . . . San Jose now. You can win with 4 offensive defensemen in your top six. When I hear the words "offensive defenseman", I think of a guy like Letang, someone who is good or better offensively and will give you an honest, smart game defensively. You give me 2 Letangs, 2 Gonchars, a Gill, and a Orpik, and I'll take my chances. What presents a problem is a top six where two of your four quote unquote offensive defensemen are Sydor and Whitney
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Postby King Sid the Great 87 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:04 pm

kirk wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Mad City Mike wrote:you can't win with four offense-first defenseman in your top 6.


Does any more need to be said?


Detroit this season . . . Nashville last season . . . San Jose now. You can win with 4 offensive defensemen in your top six. When I hear the words "offensive defenseman", I think of a guy like Letang, someone who is good or better offensively and will give you an honest, smart game defensively. You give me 2 Letangs, 2 Gonchars, a Gill, and a Orpik, and I'll take my chances. What presents a problem is a top six where two of your four quote unquote offensive defensemen are Sydor and Whitney


None of those teams are winning the Cup this year. I think that is the type of "winning" people are getting at.
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Postby Stoosh on Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:33 pm

King Sid the Great 87 wrote:
kirk wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Mad City Mike wrote:you can't win with four offense-first defenseman in your top 6.


Does any more need to be said?


Detroit this season . . . Nashville last season . . . San Jose now. You can win with 4 offensive defensemen in your top six. When I hear the words "offensive defenseman", I think of a guy like Letang, someone who is good or better offensively and will give you an honest, smart game defensively. You give me 2 Letangs, 2 Gonchars, a Gill, and a Orpik, and I'll take my chances. What presents a problem is a top six where two of your four quote unquote offensive defensemen are Sydor and Whitney


None of those teams are winning the Cup this year. I think that is the type of "winning" people are getting at.


I'm not sure about that, King Sid...I think both Detroit and San Jose would be the odds-on favorites of most to win the Cup this year.
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