LGP NASCAR Thread

[CBear3]

A few thoughts:

(4) The one thing that befuddles me is that no one from the media has inquired and no one from the police have reported whether Stewart said anything to his crew chief or spotter with whom he would have had radio contact between the initial contact and the fatal accident. (I assume they had spotters, but I don't know.) Stewart may very well have said nothing. But the spotter should have said "Ward is out of the car and looking for you." That is something spotters always say to their drivers. And it's certainly possible that Stewart said something like "F this guy, I'll spray him." Again, this doesn't likely hold the answers. But if he did say something -- before or after the accident -- it may solve the inquiry.

Spotters are typically forbidden in most local short tracks. A one-way raceceiver communication from race control to the driver to call out yellows and safety equipment location is basically its only use. Was it used to alert drivers to Ward's presence, I don't know. However, it seems to have shocked the driver of the #45 as well as Stewart so I doubt it was communicated.

Changing the tire is only a big deal if it was done before an officer looked at the vehicle and it was hidden from law enforcement. It's pretty standard practice to change tires (the RR on a sprint car especially) for loading the car on the hauler. Usually for height or track width reasons. I haven't heard a real timeline on when the change happened, but its a perfectly normal operation.

[dodint]

Yeah, my thought was that the race tires don't fit well in the trailer when left on the car. But the 'outrage' is probably explained by my earlier comments about non-race people suddenly becoming experts at 1am. My other favorite is "why didn't he hit the brakes then?" which would've meant Ward would've been struck by the front of the car instead of the side, because cars go up a track in a banked turn when all of the tires traction is allocated to a braking force instead of a turning force.

That said, sprint cars are pretty out there. I've simulted Tour Modified on pavement and they're crazy with their offset axles and different tires, and two forward gears. I imagine the sprints are even further on the crazy scale and I'm not qualifed to say what more could have been done to avoid an object that suddenly appears in front of you. The thing is, Ward would've known.

[FLPensFan]

I'll start by saying I am a Tony Stewart fan, so some may think I am biased.

1. Getting out of the car was the fatal mistake of Kevin Ward. We've seen people do it in NASCAR. There is Stewart's infamous helmet toss at Kenseth's car on Pit Road. The point where getting out of the car was 100 times worse is that Ward is running up and down in the racing groove, ie, the direct path of the cars. When Stewart and others have done it in NASCAR, none of them were remotely close to the active path of the car. Stewart was on pit road and on the apron or close to it. Danica Patrick did a "point" at the driver a year or so ago, again on the apron and a good 10-15 feet away from the oncoming cars.

2. It is entirely impossible to make any type of accurate statement from one video, accusing Stewart or claiming his innocence. Unless other videos are out there, it is going to be impossible to charge Stewart unless he verbally says "I tried to hit him" or "I tried to spray him and misjudged it." People keep saying Stewart sped up. It is impossible to tell from that video. With where the camera that took the video is, it is impossible to say with 100% certainty that the "engine rev" that is heard is Stewart's car. I'm not saying it is or isn't, but the camera is closer to the start finish line than it is the corner where the incident occurred. There are lots of other cars out there. Impossible to say it was Stewart's engine.

3. The incident occurred on dirt and in a corner. I am not a dirt car expert, but I have seen a good many races. The cars are made for the back end to slide out to the right through the turns. Watch the very first part of the video where Stewart and Ward bump and you can clearly see that. You have to turn the wheel to the left to get the back end sliding, then turn the wheel straight or back to the right (towards the wall) to steer through the turn. Even if they were slowed down some, if Tony had already started his turn, or even to make a sudden last second movement, it's not like a NASCAR on concrete/asphalt that it's just going to grip and move the way he wants. The backend is still going to slide. Again, with only one angle, I can't tell if Stewart tried to make a last second move that would have first caused the back wheels to go to the right first before snapping back towards the left. I also can't tell if the movement you see in Stewart's car happens a split second before he hits, or if it is a result of hitting Ward. You really need a camera angle looking dead on and at the other side of Stewart's car to tell that. The other thing I cannot tell in the video because it was focused on Ward out of the car, is that just like a NASCAR caution, the cars are typically not single file. If the 45 car was on the bottom groove and Stewart was on the higher groove, it would be that much more difficult for Stewart to avoid him.

4. It's sad that everyone says Tony used to do this, Tony used to do that. He may have a temper, which has cooled with the reponsibilities of car ownership, but I have never seen him directly try to harm someone on the track. Every driver has dumped someone because they wrecked the other earlier or even in another race. My only real opinion here is I don't think Stewart tried to spray him. I think Stewart has been around racing long enough to know that a driver outside his car is in a very vulnerable position, and if he could avoid him, he would have.

[CBear3]

And I think, unfortunately, that Kevin did make a last ditch move to get out of the way. It appeared to me in the video that he was taking a step up the track when hit (or thats from being hit). I guess I'd rather believe the last thing that went through his head was, "That sunofabitch ran me up into the wall" instead of oh ****.

[CBear3]

And sprints are a beast like nothing else ever made. I am constantly in awe of what it takes to drive one competitively, and how un-intuitive it is.

[canaan]

i know very little about racing save the basics and my small F1 Racing kick when i was a wee lad. Thanks to those contributing re: the kind of racing involved. i feel that ive learned to pretty nifty, albeit useless information.

[mac5155]

i know very little about racing save the basics and my small F1 Racing kick when i was a wee lad. Thanks to those contributing re: the kind of racing involved. i feel that ive learned to pretty nifty, albeit useless information.

You should head to Motordrome one day

[llipgh2]

I'll throw this out there for you racing experts. (Correct me if my data is wrong.)

From what I've read, the last 3 dirt track races Stewart was in ended in catastrophes.

A 15 car accident (that he caused) which resulted in a compressed spine fracture for one driver and ending her career.
An accident that left Stewart with a fractured leg ending his Sprint season.
Running over a driver, who died of as a result.

After the first 2 incidents, perhaps Tony should have given up dirt tracks? Has he lost his ability to drive such a course?

[dodint]

Well, he's old, and those cars are crazy. Bad combination, perhaps?

[llipgh2]

Well, he's old, and those cars are crazy. Bad combination, perhaps?

He's 43. Is that old for a NASCAR driver? (Honestly, I don't know. I don't follow NASCAR.)

[tifosi77]

Well...is anyone arguing that he wasnt stupid for being there? I dont understand why so many people bring it up when no one is arguing otherwise.

Because, absent any contrary information, it more or less absolves Stewart of culpability in the accident.

Walking through the projects at night is dumb, but that doesn't affect our analysis of a shooter's culpability.

Walking through the projects at night is not against the law, whereas shooting someone is. "Wrong place, wrong time" is not usually an allowable exception to that. Walking on to the racing groove of a hot race track is against the regs of pretty much every motorsport of which I have any knowledge.

[dodint]

Not too old for NASCAR, but maybe too old for the extra work required by sprints. I can't say.

Stewart doesn't just dabble in sprints, though. He owns teams, drives, and owns three dirt oval tracks. It isn't something he just does on the side to blow off steam. Same for Ward, a 5 year veteran even if he was only 20. It's not suprising that Stewart would be involved with those first two incidents given he's in and around the sport. I haven't seen the video of either one so I couldn't tell you if it was driver error or not. As for the Ward incident, saying he's a bad driver because of something that happened under caution like that is akin to saying Tom Pryce was a bad driver for hitting someone on foot on a hot track. It doesn't add up to me.

[tifosi77]

Yeesh........ LGPers, do not Google Tom Pryce videos unless you want to ruin the rest of your day.

[dodint]

Gah, sorry. I thought you'd be the only one to even get the reference and also would've known the outcome.

[Bioshock]

Yeesh........ LGPers, do not Google Tom Pryce videos unless you want to ruin the rest of your day.

Too late.

[tifosi77]

Yeah, that Pryce video is the main reason why I will not watch the Stewart/Ward video.

[FLPensFan]

Well, he's old, and those cars are crazy. Bad combination, perhaps?

He's 43. Is that old for a NASCAR driver? (Honestly, I don't know. I don't follow NASCAR.)

Mark Martin just stopped full time NASCAR racing at age 53-54 a year or so ago. Sterling Marlin, 57, caused a stir earlier this year when he got into Joey Logano's line and caused him to wreck. Kenny Schrader, 57, and Bill Elliott, 59, both race occassionally.

Jeff Gordon is the same age as Tony Stewart.

In a nutshell, 43 is probably near the end of the racing career for most drivers. There has been talk of Gordon retiring from NASCAR in the next few years. I haven't heard anything like that from Stewart's camp. The fact is though that if you are in good enough shape and health, the possibility exists to continue to drive into your 50's. With the exception of Martin, most of the guys driving in the 50's were fill-ins, on very small teams, or were only racing certain tracks where they had lots of success over the years.

I don't think age had anything to do with any of the wrecks. The 15-car wreck Tony Stewart has admitted he caused the wreck. Wasn't like he said, gosh I just can't control this thing. Often times drivers will be jockeying for the same space, or make a move to a space not realizing they don't have the clearance to fit there. As someone else said, I don't believe they have spotters in the dirt Sprint Cars, and only have one way radio, someone telling them caution or pit, etc. The wreck Tony got injured in happened because someone wrecked/stalled in the middle of the turn and no caution was out yet. He rammed right into the back of the car. His leg broke due to what he considered inadequate safety measures on the car....I believe the drive shaft snapped and was able to snap up into his leg. His wreck led to safety improvements in the Sprint cars. In the crash where he broke his leg, you can see the same type of movement in his car as you see in the Kevin Ward video. It appears that he makes a hard turn of the wheel to the left ....but on dirt that will cause the backend to whip out more and you need to wait until you regain traction and turn the wheel back to get it to actually turn left....just not enough time in either situation for the car to react fast enough.

Leg breaking wreck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLzjZCIyXRk

Wreck Stewart caused, where 19 year old Alysha Ruggles broke her back, was actually at the same track as the wreck Saturday night. This was Stewart's 1st time back since that wreck. While Stewart admits he caused the wreck, it happened on a restart where he just gets too close to the car next to him, their tires hook in the right spot to flip the car and a pileup ensues:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFuxfIDZFrU

[TheHammer24]

Well...is anyone arguing that he wasnt stupid for being there? I dont understand why so many people bring it up when no one is arguing otherwise.

Because, absent any contrary information, it more or less absolves Stewart of culpability in the accident.

Walking through the projects at night is dumb, but that doesn't affect our analysis of a shooter's culpability.

Walking through the projects at night is not against the law, whereas shooting someone is. "Wrong place, wrong time" is not usually an allowable exception to that. Walking on to the racing groove of a hot race track is against the regs of pretty much every motorsport of which I have any knowledge.

Sorry, tifosi, but I think your argument makes no sense. Stewart can be culpable, while Ward is also at fault. If Stewart tried to do the mud bath (I don't think he did), and hit Ward, then Stewart is culpable. The distinction is not whether what Ward did was illegal. Does a speeding driver who is struck by a belligerently drunk driver absolve the drunk driver of culpability? If the person walking through the projects violated a curfew imposed on people walking through the projects, would that absolve the murderer. Of course not. Someone can create circumstances that lead to harm, while the person harming them is still at fault.

Under your theory, Stewart had license to gun the car and intentionally run Ward over because what Ward was "against the regs of pretty much every motorsport."

[TheHammer24]

Well, he's old, and those cars are crazy. Bad combination, perhaps?

He's 43. Is that old for a NASCAR driver? (Honestly, I don't know. I don't follow NASCAR.)

Sterling Marlin, 57, caused a stir earlier this year when he got into Joey Logano's line and caused him to wreck.

Actually, it was seventy-something Morgan Shepherd.

[FLPensFan]

Well, he's old, and those cars are crazy. Bad combination, perhaps?

He's 43. Is that old for a NASCAR driver? (Honestly, I don't know. I don't follow NASCAR.)

Sterling Marlin, 57, caused a stir earlier this year when he got into Joey Logano's line and caused him to wreck.

Actually, it was seventy-something Morgan Shepherd.

Thanks. For some reason I thought Marlin, but when I looked up his age, I recall the driver being a lot older than in his 50's.

[CBear3]

Stewart won his first time back in a sprint car in Michigan earlier this year, IIRC. This isn't three races in a row, it just seems like it. The broken leg incident is poor flagging by the track. The wreck last year at Canandaigua was a result of trying to go three wide...
Which brings another interesting point to the discussion. Because of the lack of radios, mirrors, and poor visibility (made even worse by today's safety conscious containment seats and H & N restraints) there's certain things you don't do in a sprint car. Threading the needle like Stewart tried to last year is probably one of them. Additionally, and not to besmirch the dead, Kevin Ward stayed in the power and could see Stewart coming up the track Saturday night. Stewart would not be able to tell Kevin's car was ever there. The pertinent thing to do in that situation is crack the throttle and take a crack at passing the guy later. It wasn't a textbook "slide job" by Tony by any means, but Kevin controlled his own destiny there. There's no shame in making the error Kevin did (it happens all the time), but it happened nonetheless.

It's important to recognize that in the discussion of whether Tony would have any ill will towards Kevin. I don't believe there's contact between the two cars, so Tony would have never seen or felt Kevin wreck.

[Shyster]

Something I've been wondering is where the safety truck was at the time of impact. It shows up almost immediately after Ward came to a stop, and I wonder if Stewart and the other drivers were higher on the track because the safety truck was coming around. You can't tell from the video.

[TheHammer24]

I just watched the video again. I am now 100% on board with Cbear. There's no way Tony could have done the mudbath. He either gunned to run him over, or gunned it to slide away. And I cannot imagine that Tony would actually just murder someone, so it has to be the latter.

What a sad story.

Also, though irrelevant, the only way really to avoid contact with Stewart was for Ward to lift. But that's neither here nor there.

[shmenguin]

ugh...the tom pryce video...it's the opposite of anything that makes the world ok.

[tifosi77]

Under your theory, Stewart had license to gun the car and intentionally run Ward over because what Ward was "against the regs of pretty much every motorsport."

That's not at all what I'm saying. My statement is couched entirely in the context of the facts (as they are presently known) of this particular accident. How that became "murder is legal" is a bit of a stretch. None of the hypothetical situations you posit are appropriate comparisons.

Someone creates a situation or circumstance where another person doing something totally legal and within their boundaries ends up killing the first person through no mis-deed on the part of the second person. There's no criminal intent here (I challenge anyone to produce something that would stand up in court), and absent that there is no culpability on Stewart's part. It was just an accident - but one that was 100% within Ward's power to prevent.