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Wyopen
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Wyopen »

Sullivans contract question. If he gets fired let’s say middle of next year then is hired by another team, are the Penguins on the hook for his remaining buyout or is the contract cancelled. Thx.
lemieuxReturns
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by lemieuxReturns »

Wyopen wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:42 am Sullivans contract question. If he gets fired let’s say middle of next year then is hired by another team, are the Penguins on the hook for his remaining buyout or is the contract cancelled. Thx.
Not sure, but why does it matter?
lemieuxReturns
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by lemieuxReturns »

“Talking to people across the league over the last couple of days,” LeBrun said. “Kyle Dubas is listening on pretty much everyone on his roster.”
LeBrun quickly made it clear that Dubas is listening to options on everyone, except for the core group.

“Other than the core guys,” LeBrun said. “I hope I underline that part for everyone.”

Looks like Dubas is ready to start selling. Finally!
1967penguins
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by 1967penguins »

I know the Pens have problems and they are many, but what is the consensus regarding the most serious of them all? If the challenges facing the organization were to be prioritized, what would be the order in which they should be addressed? Is it coaching, personnel, player development, talent evaluation, or a system wide dysfunction that demands immediate attention? Thanks for any replies.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Andrew »

Penguins' Dubas 'listening' on all non-core players

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/pittsburgh-pengu ... -1.2078998
lemieuxReturns
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by lemieuxReturns »

1967penguins wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:58 am I know the Pens have problems and they are many, but what is the consensus regarding the most serious of them all? If the challenges facing the organization were to be prioritized, what would be the order in which they should be addressed? Is it coaching, personnel, player development, talent evaluation, or a system wide dysfunction that demands immediate attention? Thanks for any replies.
I feel the main problem is an overspend on defense at the expense of talented forwards. The organization has been able to get away with it for years because of the generational talent of Sid and Geno. But they are old now and they need help. Sid is aging a bit better than Geno but Sid is a year younger. These guys cannot elevate guys like Kunitz, Dupuis, DOC, Phillips, etc. anymore. They need talented forwards who can drive play themselves. When was the last time you saw any forward on the Pens dangle and score? Spending money on EK and Graves was a luxury we cannot afford.

But at this point, it doesnt even matter. This was the argument I have been making for the past 5 years. Now we are at a point where we just have to sell and start rebuilding. I personally hope the sell does not include Sid, Geno or Letang. I want those 3 to retire as Penguins having only played for the Penguins.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by ahawk9 »

1967penguins - My belief is there's something with the whole organization right now, but their scouting and player development are among the top things I would consider a problem. The change in ownership from Mario-et al to FSG is stark. They went from a familial atmosphere to one that is more corporate and distant. That's got to be a tough transition, maybe tougher than I ever thought about. There have been some great picks over the years (Guentzel was an awesome find), but I feel like their scouting/development is lacking. That's just my uneducated eye test, though. ...Coaching seems to be a big issue as well. I know the players are the ones of the power play, not the coaches, but with that amount of talented veterans on this team, there is no way they don't know what's wrong.

There is a whiff of stagnation in the entire organization, which is one reason I've been on the "fire the coaching staff" bandwagon for quite a number of years. It's the NHL, and coaches come and go because there's a sense that they've run their course with a team. That sense hit me with Sully & Co. about three years ago. They have to do something to pump a little fresh air into this team/organization. Coaches are usually the first step. I mean, we're at the end of an unbelievable era, but who knows how much more unbelievable they left on the table by hanging on to Bylsma and Sullivan too long.
lemieuxReturns
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by lemieuxReturns »

The Pens can benefit this year not only by selling some of their players but also by picking up some overpaid players on contending teams. Cap dumps. We have not been in this position for a long time, but the organization should be smart. If we are selling, then they should understand we are not turning this thing around in a year. Picking up some bad contracts for assets is also a way to help accelerate the rebuild.
Daniel
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Daniel »

ahawk9 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:20 am 1967penguins - My belief is there's something with the whole organization right now, but their scouting and player development are among the top things I would consider a problem. The change in ownership from Mario-et al to FSG is stark. They went from a familial atmosphere to one that is more corporate and distant. That's got to be a tough transition, maybe tougher than I ever thought about. There have been some great picks over the years (Guentzel was an awesome find), but I feel like their scouting/development is lacking. That's just my uneducated eye test, though. ...Coaching seems to be a big issue as well. I know the players are the ones of the power play, not the coaches, but with that amount of talented veterans on this team, there is no way they don't know what's wrong.

There is a whiff of stagnation in the entire organization, which is one reason I've been on the "fire the coaching staff" bandwagon for quite a number of years. It's the NHL, and coaches come and go because there's a sense that they've run their course with a team. That sense hit me with Sully & Co. about three years ago. They have to do something to pump a little fresh air into this team/organization. Coaches are usually the first step. I mean, we're at the end of an unbelievable era, but who knows how much more unbelievable they left on the table by hanging on to Bylsma and Sullivan too long.
I think stagnation and Mike Sullivan are the two biggest problems. I agree with scouting and development, but I think both are just not in sync with Sullivan's (ie why scout/draft a big forward when Sullivan will never use them). I know teams don't draft for today's need, but I think the overall organization seems to shy away from a particular style of player and that restricts the scouts. The player development might be good, might not be good, but when all players are blocked at the AHL level because they sign Mark Jankowski and barely NHLers in August, how can we know if the development is good? No competition for roster spots in Sept, but I think Dubas is fixing that part.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by ahawk9 »

That's a good observation, Daniel. It could be a top-down problem that handcuffs scouts. *sigh*
maopens
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by maopens »

I keep hearing how many in the hockey world tout Mike Sullivan as a good coach. And he may be. But he certainly appears to be stubborn, inflexible and incapable of adapting.

To me it looks like the book on how to play against the Pens is pretty clear. Stack up on the blueline and the Pens will turn it over on entry. Make the Pens dump and chase because their roster is not built to win board battles for possession. When the Pens are on the PP, just compact around the net and the Pens will run their own clock out by passing it around the perimeter endlessly without shooting. When the Pens have a lead, they turtle up and quit playing offense, playing entire periods in their own end until eventually the other teams socre.

That has been the playbook against the Pens since 2018. And the Pens never, never, never do anything different than play the Sullivan playbook of trying to hammer a square peg through a round hole "with better execution" ... rather than adapting to what you are facing.

Watching the Pens is the equivalent of watching a football team trying to run the ball when the defense has 9 in the box. But the gameplan is to run the ball so that's what we have to do.

This team is, and has been, ground hog day all over again, day after day, month after month, year after year.

Roster turnover never matters. Players leave here and perform better elsewhere. Players come here and underperform their previous levels of production. I do not think it is the players. It can't be that many players just coincidentally having bad years here.

I'm tired of Sullivan. I'm tired of Reirdan. I'm tired of not recognizing problems and adapting strategy to deal with them. Apparently, Sullivan knows one system and only one system. Eventually, other coaches figure out how to beat that.
Wyopen
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Wyopen »

lemieuxReturns wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:48 am
Wyopen wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:42 am Sullivans contract question. If he gets fired let’s say middle of next year then is hired by another team, are the Penguins on the hook for his remaining buyout or is the contract cancelled. Thx.
Not sure, but why does it matter?
I’m just asking would the Pens still be on the hook? That’s all. No hidden agenda.
Crash66
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Crash66 »

It's obvious Sully likes a certain type of player to fill out the roster. That type is in the image of who / what he was as a player. I really believe he has more control over roster moves than most coaches. Dubas needs to go full Billy Beane mode on him. Don't have a lot of faith that will happen as Hextall and Burke didn't accomplish it after all their "truculence" talk.
Last edited by Crash66 on Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
lemieuxReturns
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by lemieuxReturns »

Sully is definitely a good coach. He has won two cups. But, at this point the Penguins do not need a good coach. In fact, they would benefit from a lousy one.

Didn't the Pens get a pick for Dan Balsma?
lemieuxReturns
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by lemieuxReturns »

Wyopen wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:04 am
lemieuxReturns wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:48 am
Wyopen wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:42 am Sullivans contract question. If he gets fired let’s say middle of next year then is hired by another team, are the Penguins on the hook for his remaining buyout or is the contract cancelled. Thx.
Not sure, but why does it matter?
I’m just asking would the Pens still be on the hook? That’s all. No hidden agenda.
I get it. But as a fan, I could care less. It does not affect the cap in any way and if a billionaire group is out some millions so be it.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by largegarlic »

If there's some silver lining, it's that the Pens have been so bad coming out of the break, that they've made it crystal clear to Dubas that they should be selling at the deadline. I was afraid that they'd go along a little above .500, keep within a couple points of the playoffs, convince Dubas not to make any moves, and then still end up missing by a point or two at the end of the season. That would have been the worst case scenario, I think.
lemieuxReturns
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by lemieuxReturns »

largegarlic wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:28 am If there's some silver lining, it's that the Pens have been so bad coming out of the break, that they've made it crystal clear to Dubas that they should be selling at the deadline. I was afraid that they'd go along a little above .500, keep within a couple points of the playoffs, convince Dubas not to make any moves, and then still end up missing by a point or two at the end of the season. That would have been the worst case scenario, I think.
Jake getting injured helps I guess and before that not having the cap space to field a full forward roster also helps.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by DelPen »

Sullivan was a failed head coach before he was promoted and the entire team caught fire. Then we got very lucky the next season to repeat. But since then we have been below expectations and Sullivan has been bad under three different GM’s with a vastly different supporting cast. Our core is now three players. It’s not them that’s sinking the team. It’s the coach.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by thehockeyguru »

Eddie O on NHL network just said keeping the band together in Pittsburgh closed their window a few years ago. The Pens decided to bring back Malkin and Letang and the team has suffered. If they miss the playoffs again moving anyone on the roster should be considered

Pens and Calgary are two teams who should start the domino effect leading up to the deadline
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Guinness »

Wyopen wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:42 am Sullivans contract question. If he gets fired let’s say middle of next year then is hired by another team, are the Penguins on the hook for his remaining buyout or is the contract cancelled. Thx.
They have to pay him on his existing contract until he signs with another team.
Wyopen
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Wyopen »

Guinness wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:27 pm
Wyopen wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:42 am Sullivans contract question. If he gets fired let’s say middle of next year then is hired by another team, are the Penguins on the hook for his remaining buyout or is the contract cancelled. Thx.
They have to pay him on his existing contract until he signs with another team.
Thank you. That’s all I wanted to know. Appreciate it.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by DelPen »

Guinness wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:27 pm
Wyopen wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:42 am Sullivans contract question. If he gets fired let’s say middle of next year then is hired by another team, are the Penguins on the hook for his remaining buyout or is the contract cancelled. Thx.
They have to pay him on his existing contract until he signs with another team.
And if they fire him now someone will hire him by August if even that long. Wait around until the summer to do it he may sit out a year and then at that point maybe he sits out until after the Olympics to focus on running that team?

Every day you wait to fire him since 2021 is one more day too long. He should had been fired with all the assistants after choking against Montreal in the restart, he can’t coach effective hockey in 2024. Getting younger would actually make things worse.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Antonio »

DelPen wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 5:04 pm Sullivan was a failed head coach before he was promoted and the entire team caught fire. Then we got very lucky the next season to repeat. But since then we have been below expectations and Sullivan has been bad under three different GM’s with a vastly different supporting cast. Our core is now three players. It’s not them that’s sinking the team. It’s the coach.
Amazing how many people can't seem to see that, isn't it? So many idiots among the hockey "experts" in the nhl universe that endlessly extol his amazing skill as a head coach. Never been impressive, never. Bylsma won a cup and a grand total of 0 people believe he's a good coach. Absolutely no reason to think Mike Sullivan is anything other than what he is, which is a hunk of trash. Trash in Boston, trash here. Give him a roster without prime age superstars and he can't and won't produce ****... we know it because he's shown it for years just like he did before he came here.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by FLPensFan »

Here's the thing with Sullivan, to which I think Dubas made a point. In what seems very odd, Sullivan has done well when he has lesser talented, younger players on the roster. This is where the idea that he'd be a good coach for a rebuilding/retooling team comes from.

A year or two ago, when we had Blueger playing 2nd line center and Carter or someone else 3rd line, and several other callups due to all the injuries...the team actually seemed to do well and play his system better than the healthy collection of more skilled talent.

What's odd is that, when he has the chance to do that now, he opts for the Harkins, Carter, Acciari, Nieto types, instead of Puustinen, Puljujarvi, Poulin, Zohorna types.

Nothing else has worked. Why not just try this:

Rakell-Crosby-Puljujarvi
DOC-Malkin-Rust
Smith-Eller-Acciari
Poulin-Zohorna-Puustinen

Use the 3rd line as your defensive, responsible line, and your 4th line as a young legs line that is good at both ends. They have plenty of cap space to do this while Jake is on LTIR. They have already waived White. They'd need to waive Harkins, too.

I know Poulin may not yet be back, but he's got to be close. Poulin-Zohorna-Puustinen had been a line in WBS. Zohorna hadn't impressed much here, but stick him with some guys he's worked with a lot in WBS, and see if he can handle the duties.

Can it really be worse with that trio than what White, Harkins, and Carter provide?????
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by BlackNGold4Life »

The debate some have with Sullivan on these boards and others in the NHL is he is a good coach or not. Here are my thoughts. And where i think Dubas is off.

Sullivan had better assistants with his successful seasons. The staff now isn’t great. And it’s diminished over the years.

Sullivan is probably great at coaching what he believes is going to produce success. They see great execution and he seems to check all the coaches boxes.

BUT, they need to ask themselves if what he’s coaching - on a broader level, is effective? It’s like a great public speaker. They can be great at it but if what they are saying is meaningless and not impactful - you don’t get results.

So even if Dubas is right and he’s a great coach, is still one of two things.

Sullivan is a great coach - but what he coaches isn’t effective anymore.

Sulliva is a great coach, but not for this team as they have tuned him out, aren’t effective or just can run his system effectively.

Either way, he needs to be gone.
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