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Maestro
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Maestro »

DelPen wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 5:04 pm Sullivan was a failed head coach before he was promoted and the entire team caught fire. Then we got very lucky the next season to repeat. But since then we have been below expectations and Sullivan has been bad under three different GM’s with a vastly different supporting cast. Our core is now three players. It’s not them that’s sinking the team. It’s the coach.
Yeah and he ain't going anywhere for years. :face: :pop:
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by BigMcK »

ahawk9 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:20 am The change in ownership from Mario-et al to FSG is stark. They went from a familial atmosphere to one that is more corporate and distant.
This is probably the most underrated issue that hasn't been mentioned. The face of the Penguins had been Mario Lemieux for generations. In Mario we believe. The change of the franchise to a faceless corporation with no ties to Penguins fanbase, reported issues with commitments of non payment to Mario-et al, and his self exile from public Penguins game have left the Penguins short of accountability.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by stonewizard51 »

ahawk9 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:20 am The change in ownership from Mario-et al to FSG is stark. They went from a familial atmosphere to one that is more corporate and distant.

There is a whiff of stagnation in the entire organization, which is one reason I've been on the "fire the coaching staff" bandwagon for quite a number of years. It's the NHL, and coaches come and go because there's a sense that they've run their course with a team. That sense hit me with Sully & Co. about three years ago. They have to do something to pump a little fresh air into this team/organization. Coaches are usually the first step. I mean, we're at the end of an unbelievable era, but who knows how much more unbelievable they left on the table by hanging on to Bylsma and Sullivan too long.
Thanks for that. I made a similar comment on another board and got fried for it. They wanted documentation and I said just look at what's behind the bench and on the ice. Who knows. Maybe it was just me being frustrated when I made my comments.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by ahawk9 »

:fist:
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Admin »

Is nhltraderumor.com legit? :lol:

The proposed deal would see the Canadiens ship young defenseman Jordan Harris, top prospect Joshua Roy, and Winnipeg’s 2024 first-round pick (owned by Montreal) to Pittsburgh in exchange for Guentzel and defenseman Ryan Graves.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by largegarlic »

stonewizard51 wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:30 am
ahawk9 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:20 am The change in ownership from Mario-et al to FSG is stark. They went from a familial atmosphere to one that is more corporate and distant.

There is a whiff of stagnation in the entire organization, which is one reason I've been on the "fire the coaching staff" bandwagon for quite a number of years. It's the NHL, and coaches come and go because there's a sense that they've run their course with a team. That sense hit me with Sully & Co. about three years ago. They have to do something to pump a little fresh air into this team/organization. Coaches are usually the first step. I mean, we're at the end of an unbelievable era, but who knows how much more unbelievable they left on the table by hanging on to Bylsma and Sullivan too long.
Thanks for that. I made a similar comment on another board and got fried for it. They wanted documentation and I said just look at what's behind the bench and on the ice. Who knows. Maybe it was just me being frustrated when I made my comments.
I think it's fair to question the ownership, but I'm not sure that's where I put the blame. As mentioned above, this is very reminiscent of the end of the Bylsma era where they wasted a few good shots at a Cup by hanging onto Bylsma and his stale approach too long. That was Lemieux and Burkle.

And FSG did can Hextall (maybe a year too late) and brought in Dubas, who is widely thought of as one the best up-and-coming GMs, for big bucks.

I'm also influenced by Liverpool's performance under their ownership. Liverpool has won a lot more since they took over, and they're currently top of the EPL again. They could have easily bought them as an iconic brand, not put much money or effort into them, let them float along outside the top tier of EPL, and then sell for a big profit in a decade as EPL club values go up across the board.

I think someone (Dubas or FSG) is not making the right call with Sullivan, but I'm not ready to say there's a systemic issue with the ownership.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by ahawk9 »

I think we fans can get a decent feel for some things going on within the organization (at least sometimes). Who knows, maybe the lockerroom is the closest one of all time, but this hasn't felt right for a couple of years. It has the same vibe as the end of the Bylsma and Johnston eras. The players may be putting forth the effort, but there's something almost psychological hanging over the organization. Some of the tendencies (Sully not trusting young guys except fringe guys who couldn't score with an open net, lineup mismanagement, power play killing them, overtime cluelessness) are carved into their DNA at this point. Psychologically, the team needs something to happen to burst that tension bubble that's been building over so long a time. It's almost a "here we go again" mentality.

When they got mad the last game - for that brief time in the third period - and tied it, it was noticeable to me for its rarity. They looked committed and unified in purpose, then overtime began and "here we go again." If Sullivan really has that iron-clad contract, then KD could still can an assistant or two (ahem, Reirden!!) just to do SOMETHING. Trade-wise, I expect some movement (Guentzel, Smith, Eller), and that might help for the change alone. I don't know, I'm just voicing my frustrated opinion.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by IntangibleBeer »

BlackNGold4Life wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 11:42 pm
Sullivan had better assistants with his successful seasons. The staff now isn’t great. And it’s diminished over the years.
This is very true. I believe Tocchet's role, for one, was very underappreciated while he was here.
BlackNGold4Life wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 11:42 pm Either way, he needs to be gone.
Amen.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by lemieuxReturns »

Admin wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:59 pm Is nhltraderumor.com legit? :lol:

The proposed deal would see the Canadiens ship young defenseman Jordan Harris, top prospect Joshua Roy, and Winnipeg’s 2024 first-round pick (owned by Montreal) to Pittsburgh in exchange for Guentzel and defenseman Ryan Graves.
Roy is ranked 13th of their prospects.
https://www.eliteprospects.com/team/64/ ... the-system

I would think they could do better than that.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by ahawk9 »

Maybe adding Graves diminishes the return somewhat. If they keep Graves, then I would hope the prospect coming back would be closer to the top of their system.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by FLPensFan »

lemieuxReturns wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:57 pm
Admin wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:59 pm Is nhltraderumor.com legit? :lol:

The proposed deal would see the Canadiens ship young defenseman Jordan Harris, top prospect Joshua Roy, and Winnipeg’s 2024 first-round pick (owned by Montreal) to Pittsburgh in exchange for Guentzel and defenseman Ryan Graves.
Roy is ranked 13th of their prospects.
https://www.eliteprospects.com/team/64/ ... the-system

I would think they could do better than that.
I don't think nhltraderumor.com is very legit, BUT...the return on Jake is going to be worse if we are attaching Ryan Graves to the deal. He's got 5 more years left and has looked completely clueless. But, Montreal will probably turn him into Matheson 2.0. LOL

As for Roy and Hudson...I think there are better deals out there for us BUT...I wouldn't use EliteProspects for a teams ranking. They are a very good site, but I don't think that list is really a "ranking." For proof, go look at the Penguins...it has Yager at top, followed by Zam Plante, Lukas Svejkovsky, Dillon Hamaliuk...Pickering is 6th. From what I am seeing, EliteProspects is grouping by leagues and point totals.

If you look at the Athletic prospect pool rankings, Roy is 4th behind Lane Hutson, David Reinbacher, and Jacob Fowler. Roy as listed as a top 9 player. He's moved from center to wing to have more success. Harris is an undersized defensiveman, probably a 3rd pairing guy.

Even taking Graves, not enough for me. You want to throw Hutson or Reinbacher in there instead, then you have my attention.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by FLPensFan »

A couple of Penguins things from Friedman's 32 thoughts:

--If teams are allowed to talk extension with Guentzel before a trade, Friedman says that will all but eliminate Edmonton. They don't have the money to do it, and they are also essentially in a dollar in, dollar out scenario. They'd need to make other moves to even be in it.

--Says it's something purely in his head, but seeing Daniel Alfredsson behind the bench in Ottawa had Friedman wondering if Ottawa would consider an Erik Karlsson reunion. Says he and Alfredsson together as player and coach would work wonders.

--Friedman also wondered if a Reilly Smith reunion made sense....Smith to Florida Panthers, that is.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Admin »

Cheery article about Malkin from Dan Kingerski:
https://pittsburghhockeynow.com/evgeni- ... about-end/
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Antonio »

I really want to see Graves without Sullivan before moving him. I think moving him at a loss would be a huge mistake before ditching the coaching staff. He's just yet another case of a player that I struggle to believe is as bad as he has been here based on his previous time elsewhere. He's not a horrific 35 plus contract that has to be dumped at a loss to free up space.
KG
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by KG »

Would think Jake would not want to go to Montreal. He’s not going to sign there long term.

Bogus rumor
Maestro
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Maestro »

who knows how much more unbelievable they left on the table by hanging on to Bylsma and Sullivan too long.
I'm convinced 1 cup at least was wasted by hanging on to these guys for WAY TOO long. :slug: :slug: :slug:

Same crap we hear about Sully was said about Dan B - who after he left Pitt failed to make playoffs for 2 years with Buffalo then was never a head coach again (in the NHL).

Sully will get a new job if he's ever let go (although I doubt that will happen) - but once that team fizzles after 2 months, 1 season, then what?

His system is outdated. While it seems it may take the Penguins organization 7 years of Crosby's career to realize this, other teams won't be so forgiving to consistent, repeated failure.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Daniel »

Maestro wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:12 pm
who knows how much more unbelievable they left on the table by hanging on to Bylsma and Sullivan too long.
I'm convinced 1 cup at least was wasted by hanging on to these guys for WAY TOO long. :slug: :slug: :slug:

Same crap we hear about Sully was said about Dan B - who after he left Pitt failed to make playoffs for 2 years with Buffalo then was never a head coach again (in the NHL).

Sully will get a new job if he's ever let go (although I doubt that will happen) - but once that team fizzles after 2 months, 1 season, then what?

His system is outdated. While it seems it may take the Penguins organization 7 years of Crosby's career to realize this, other teams won't be so forgiving to consistent, repeated failure.
I think when Sullivan came in, he was a breathe of fresh air, had a good system that fit the team, and adapted like an NFL coach would (I think I read an article about that last one). Systems work great when you have the players to play the system and both the system and players adjust.

The problem is, 5-8 years later the NHL copied and caught up to the system and Sullivan ran out of adjustments. Rather than try to be innovative or change with the league and age of the players, Sullivan is stagnant in 2017.

I don't mind a good defense, low scoring offense that wins 2-1 if it matches the team. The problem is, this team is low scoring because they can't play the 2017 system, not because they're more passive and jump on opportunities. I do, however, mind a team that can't score on the PP, refuses to change from the Harlem Globetrotter style and get to the fundamentals, which ironically is what Karlsson excels at. Shoot the puck, crash the net, get the puck back to EK, keep doing that until you score. Not exactly that, but you get the gist.
Last edited by Daniel on Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lemieuxReturns
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by lemieuxReturns »

I was thinking about Jake being injured and had a thought. Does it actually HELP his trade value if he is on LTIR? He does not count against the cap and once the playoffs start, I think the cap goes away? Right? Like Satan years ago?
Maestro
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Maestro »

When you win 2 cups you wear a target. Every other coach in the league is figuring out a way to beat you.
They did
Then again, and again, and again, and again, then couldn't beat some of the worst teams in the league to make the playoffs, now nowhere close to the playoffs..

But the organization seems perfectly okay with it.
Until they hemorrhage money I guess but Lemieux said they needed to make it to 2nd rd to break even spending to the cap and that was with 41 sell outs.
So things can't be too rosy in the CFO office.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Pens4Life »

I hope the Canadiens game ends Phillips experiment, I would just waive him,along with Harkins.. bring back Puljujarvi into lineup.. glad to see Noel back, he helped quickly.

But if we waive Harkins - who to play as 4th line LW, we cant have line only with RH players - Puljuarvi aint for that spot, Acciari and Carter also not suited for LW.. thats the issue I see and why we are still playing him.. when Nieto comes back? Too bad Poulin has so many issues, personal agenda last year, injuries this year..
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by thehockeyguru »

The elephant in the room is Malkin, is this a slump or has father time caught up with him? My personal opinion is he needs to be moved to wing, problem with that is we have zero center depth in the organization
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Maestro »

Trading Jake for someone who can be #2 center and moving geno to sid's wing makes a lot of sense, which means it will never happen.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by FLPensFan »

Dejan argues that Phillips may be the worst waiver wire pickup ever, and that whoever evaluated him should be banned from hockey. There were a couple of reasons/examples given, but the big one, in terms of his spot in the lineup:

With Phillips in 5:03 of ice time ... (with Geno)

Shots: 10-1 for Montreal
Shot attempts: 15-1 for Montreal

With Puustinen in 3:39 of ice time ... (with Geno)

Shots: 6-0 for Pittsburgh
Shot attempts: 11-1 for Pittsburgh
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Coffey Break »

The telling story here is Puustinen has looked remarkable everytime he's played in the top 6 (particularly with Geno). And even more important, Geno actually looks like himself when he has a competent winger whose good on the forecheck, has a deadly shot, and a hockey IQ level above 4.

All that means is that the bonehead behind the bench is going to keep trying tweener Philips on the 2nd line.
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Re: Random Penguins Fodder

Post by Crash66 »

But according to Sullivan, we're all stupid and he's a genius. Even Jay and Co. we're raving about Puustinen during the 2nd intermission and after the game. Other than 1 glaring turnover, he had a great game.
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