Jake to Carolina

[HellsKitchen7]

I don't think anyone believes that changing the coach at this point is going to magically turn the team around. In fact, we're currently in the dark ages of pittsburgh sports. Maybe not x generation dark, but give it time.

The change should've been made after 2021 IMO, pretty sure I argued with Murphy on here about it then. I felt that way then because I thought a change of philosophy would benefit a much older team. I feel that way now because it would probably benefit a potential new, younger team.

[Guinness]

Okay so your position is that changing coaches doesn't change anything? So we should have just kept Mike Therrien when it wasn't working? We should have kept MIke Johnston when it was CLEAR he wasn't working?

How long of a leash do you want to give these guys? He's the second longest tenured coach in the league and he hasn't won a thing since 2018, and that wasn't really all that much.

This is not how successful franchises operate. This is Art Rooney 2 level of obstinance, and it's doing nothing for this team other than wasting one of the best seasons that a 36 year old superstar has ever posted. They changed the GM and POHO, as well they should have... as every joe shmoe walking down Liberty Avenue knew without having to think about it. I was fine with him keeping him behind the bench this year, but there is no excuse to go into next season with him and his staff still running things. You can't do that after 8 years of doing nothing if you're a serious organization that is 100% focused on winning championships.

I'm honestly not even sure why we're still discussing this. It seems crystal clear to most people that Sullivan has lost this team. It happens. It doesn't mean he's a bad coach. It just means it's time to move on. This team has been through a ton of coaches since Badger in 91... I'm not sure why you're so married to this guy that you want to argue that we should keep him after such a pathetic stretch of performance.

No, because why would anyone equate the circumstances of the 2008 and 2015 Penguins with those of the current team and assume that a coaching change would have the same effect? We've gotten so used to the team pouting its way into a coaching change that it's become expected and normalized behavior in Pittsburgh. It seems that this time around they're trying something different because unlike 2008 and 2015, there's no useful player upside to the change.

Your premise is flawed. A team that just traded Jake Guentzel for prospects is not 100% focused on winning championships. Why do you think the team is having its latest mental meltdown? They know it too. Besides, how much actual upside do you think this current team has? Your 36 year old superstar is visibly tiring for the second year in a row, mostly because there's nobody else to step up. The last time they tried the "aging superstar will drag us into the playoffs" thing it was 2001-02. Malkin is mentally and physically checking out and either can't or won't adapt. Letang is making stupid mistakes. Karlsson's actually not that bad analytically but he also hasn't been the difference maker he was expected to be. Nobody knows how to score goals anymore. The bottom 6 forwards might as well not exist. This is what a new coach will have to work with.

These are late 30s players with their heads up their bums not listening to the coaches. The power play alone is a big time red flag. Either the organization literally doesn't care that there's open revolt on power play tactics, or they've decided that the players aren't going to get their way this time via a coaching change.

Any team where the veteran presence just does its own thing is no more likely to listen to a new coach as compared to the old one. What are they going to do? Bring in even more veterans to "show the young(ish) guys how it's done"? Start scratching them one by one? Plus, all the veterans with craniorectal juxtaposition have no movement clauses. It's a consequence free environment. I think Dubas knows this, hence the Guentzel trade as a shot across their bows.

The only circumstance in which a coaching change would help at this point is if they're shifting fully into flush the roster/play the kids mode. Sullivan's actually good at that if you recall. Remember beating Toronto 7-0 with Carter and Rodriguez as your top two centers? Remember all of the times this team stepped it up when its best players were out?

First of all, credit where it's due - this cracked me up:

craniorectal juxtaposition

Kudos, sir. Well done.

That said, if the team has checked out on the coach, what do you do? The answer has always been that you go find someone who they'll listen to and ride him 'til they check out on him. You can't reasonably trade away the entire team. Yes, the roster needs to be rejiggered, but that is going to take a solid year, year and a half. I don't think it's a good idea to bring in a bunch of new, young players who just are not listening to this coach. You bring in someone who gets the room pumped up. That was probably the one thing about Disco that he actually did well. He didn't need to be Scotty Bowman, he just needed to re-energize the team and let them do their thing.

It''s going to be different this time. I hope, but I doubt that we'll win another Cup in 10 or 15 years. Drafts will have the most to say about that. But Sully's time has clearly passed, and it's time to go out and find a new voice.

The next coach probably isn't going to win a Cup... but he should be one who will shepherd the next generation of this team in that direction. Sully is just not that guy, and it's because he's been here for so long that even from his perspective that's not going to be enough. Seems like that's the reason guys like Puusty, Hollander, and several others never got the shot they should have. Sully's mindset has always been, "WIN, and WIN NOW". And that's great, but we're at the end of that stage. It's time to build again.

[Maestro]

I don't think anyone believes that changing the coach at this point is going to magically turn the team around. In fact, we're currently in the dark ages of pittsburgh sports. Maybe not x generation dark, but give it time.

The change should've been made after 2021 IMO, pretty sure I argued with Murphy on here about it then. I felt that way then because I thought a change of philosophy would benefit a much older team. I feel that way now because it would probably benefit a potential new, younger team.

They may score at least 1 goal under a new coach.

[HellsKitchen7]

I don't think anyone believes that changing the coach at this point is going to magically turn the team around. In fact, we're currently in the dark ages of pittsburgh sports. Maybe not x generation dark, but give it time.

The change should've been made after 2021 IMO, pretty sure I argued with Murphy on here about it then. I felt that way then because I thought a change of philosophy would benefit a much older team. I feel that way now because it would probably benefit a potential new, younger team.

They may score at least 1 goal under a new coach.

You're probably right. I sat through plenty of x generation games at the igloo, so I'm familiar. Then again, the current team has been blanked quite a bit this past week.

[maopens]

This team really has forgotten how to generate offense.

[Sigwolf]

No, because why would anyone equate the circumstances of the 2008 and 2015 Penguins with those of the current team and assume that a coaching change would have the same effect? We've gotten so used to the team pouting its way into a coaching change that it's become expected and normalized behavior in Pittsburgh. It seems that this time around they're trying something different because unlike 2008 and 2015, there's no useful player upside to the change.

Your premise is flawed. A team that just traded Jake Guentzel for prospects is not 100% focused on winning championships. Why do you think the team is having its latest mental meltdown? They know it too. Besides, how much actual upside do you think this current team has? Your 36 year old superstar is visibly tiring for the second year in a row, mostly because there's nobody else to step up. The last time they tried the "aging superstar will drag us into the playoffs" thing it was 2001-02. Malkin is mentally and physically checking out and either can't or won't adapt. Letang is making stupid mistakes. Karlsson's actually not that bad analytically but he also hasn't been the difference maker he was expected to be. Nobody knows how to score goals anymore. The bottom 6 forwards might as well not exist. This is what a new coach will have to work with.

These are late 30s players with their heads up their bums not listening to the coaches. The power play alone is a big time red flag. Either the organization literally doesn't care that there's open revolt on power play tactics, or they've decided that the players aren't going to get their way this time via a coaching change.

Any team where the veteran presence just does its own thing is no more likely to listen to a new coach as compared to the old one. What are they going to do? Bring in even more veterans to "show the young(ish) guys how it's done"? Start scratching them one by one? Plus, all the veterans with craniorectal juxtaposition have no movement clauses. It's a consequence free environment. I think Dubas knows this, hence the Guentzel trade as a shot across their bows.

The only circumstance in which a coaching change would help at this point is if they're shifting fully into flush the roster/play the kids mode. Sullivan's actually good at that if you recall. Remember beating Toronto 7-0 with Carter and Rodriguez as your top two centers? Remember all of the times this team stepped it up when its best players were out?

Perhaps someone should ask why anyone would equate the circumstances of the 2016 and 2017 Penguins to those of the current team? What is it about Sullivan that has people so convinced he is untouchable? He is not leading anyone, he is not changing anything, he is not adapting to anything. He is sticking to the same method, regardless of outcome, and regardless of personnel and their ability to work in such a system.

The Pens did not outbid the league to acquire such a genius. He was a bottom six player in the league. He had a good start with Boston as a head coach, followed by a sharp drop-off the next year when he was replaced. He then spent nearly ten years bouncing around the minors and assistant coaching jobs before doing well in Wilkes-barre for a very shortened season. He got promoted, struck gold, and utilized the players with which he was familiar from the minors at the time. Suddenly, he is an expert at recognizing and developing minor league depth, a trait that has inexplicably stuck with him all of these years.

The 'dead cat bounce' lasted a year and a half. Be thankful for it. But don't keep sitting around waiting for the cat to bounce again... it's not happening.

Sullivan promoted the top players he coached during his brief time in WBS. He has done nothing to advance a young player since, so the narrative that he is the one to advance the new generation of Penguins really should stop. He has done well since with young players in the lineup only when he has no choice but to play them. When there is an option, the veteran always wins, regardless of how non-productive that veteran may be.

The team has gone through more than seven years of futility and lack of playoff performance, despite 3 GM's and more than 70% roster turnover. A look for change of leadership is not, in any way, the request of a spoiled fan-base. It is simply accepting reality.

[VA Fan]

I think think the bottom line for the fire Sullivan camp is that it is really the only thing that has not been tried to improve results. Whether it really will or not is for most I think irrelevant. Replacing him is the only lever left to pull. If it works people can ask why did we not do it sooner. If it doesn't the response is we did not do it soon enough.
I think one question that ownership needs to be honest about is what are you going to do if you keep Sullivan. Then after an off season of his input on the roster like he had this past summer the team still does not perform.

[Maestro]

I don't think anyone believes that changing the coach at this point is going to magically turn the team around. In fact, we're currently in the dark ages of pittsburgh sports. Maybe not x generation dark, but give it time.

The change should've been made after 2021 IMO, pretty sure I argued with Murphy on here about it then. I felt that way then because I thought a change of philosophy would benefit a much older team. I feel that way now because it would probably benefit a potential new, younger team.

They may score at least 1 goal under a new coach.

You're probably right. I sat through plenty of x generation games at the igloo, so I'm familiar. Then again, the current team has been blanked quite a bit this past week.

Hey you got to see Milan Kraft in his prime. Not everyone can say that.

[Daniel]

I think think the bottom line for the fire Sullivan camp is that it is really the only thing that has not been tried to improve results. Whether it really will or not is for most I think irrelevant. Replacing him is the only lever left to pull. If it works people can ask why did we not do it sooner. If it doesn't the response is we did not do it soon enough.
I think one question that ownership needs to be honest about is what are you going to do if you keep Sullivan. Then after an off season of his input on the roster like he had this past summer the team still does not perform.

I think the bottom line is lack of results over several seasons. In modern sports, I can't recall a head coach that has survived that (other than Tomlin but Teflon Mike isn't just hockey I guess).

[Cow_Master66]

While Sully obviously needs to go, putting all the blame on him is misdirected. The players on the roster, collectively, are not good enough. That's not on the coach.

Hockey is a team sport, but so is hockey operations. Those blaming Dubas are reaching even more than those blaming Sullivan. Yinz need to accept the fact that there's no righting this ship in 1-2 years, regardless of who is brought in/shipped out. If management doesn't approach the next 2-3 seasons with patience, they will be doomed to fail and further kick the can down the road. Stop worrying about how old the Captain is. His contract or playing days shouldn't be a target for success this team is trying to hit. Explain to him, something he already should know by the way, that this "rebuild" towards true contention is 3-4 seasons away minimum, and ask him if he wants to stick around. If he doesn't, then trade him to where he wants to go when the time is right. If he wants to stay, great. I know the thought of trading him is sacrilege around here, but if he doesn't want to be here for the down seasons, you are doing him a favor. I doubt anyone will blame him, but they shouldn't blame the organization either. Everything runs it's course, "Gretzky was traded", yada yada yada.

This organization has to make some tough decisions. It's easy to see them just wanting to keep the core 3 together until they ultimately retire, but just be prepared that turns the rebuild from a 3-4 year process to a 8-9 year process.

[Pitts]

Until a week ago - I never would have entertained the thought that Sid would want to leave this team. I know he still says he never wants to leave - and apparently that is very important to him - but the way he's been acting the past 2 weeks really has me wondering if he's thinking of moving on. He's been terrible on the ice!

[pekkasteele]

Yes, sure, a good team can lose in the first round, but a good team don't lose in the 1st round or miss the playoffs for 6 straight years. Participation medals is not counted as success.

Uh, sure they do. The Chicago Blackhawks did it. The Kings did it. The Detroit Red Wings won a couple more rounds, but I'm fairly sure that people would not be saying "that's all right then" if the Penguins' record looked like that. "Participation medals are not counted as success" is an arrogant fan belief.

Ok, so it is only we dumb fans that think it is a failure, the "others" whoever they are, know that the Pens have been a huge success the last 6 years? Or what are you saying?

[Pitts]

Yes, sure, a good team can lose in the first round, but a good team don't lose in the 1st round or miss the playoffs for 6 straight years. Participation medals is not counted as success.

Uh, sure they do. The Chicago Blackhawks did it. The Kings did it. The Detroit Red Wings won a couple more rounds, but I'm fairly sure that people would not be saying "that's all right then" if the Penguins' record looked like that. "Participation medals are not counted as success" is an arrogant fan belief.

Ok, so it is only we dumb fans that think it is a failure, the "others" whoever they are, know that the Pens have been a huge success the last 6 years? Or what are you saying?

Pretty sure he saying that we all need to temper our expectations. All winning teams go through these growing pains. We aren't experiencing anything different than any other team. We can't possibly stay on top forever. It also doesn't mean that some level of success cannot be restored next year or the year after.

[pekkasteele]

Yes, sure, a good team can lose in the first round, but a good team don't lose in the 1st round or miss the playoffs for 6 straight years. Participation medals is not counted as success.

Uh, sure they do. The Chicago Blackhawks did it. The Kings did it. The Detroit Red Wings won a couple more rounds, but I'm fairly sure that people would not be saying "that's all right then" if the Penguins' record looked like that. "Participation medals are not counted as success" is an arrogant fan belief.

Ok, so it is only we dumb fans that think it is a failure, the "others" whoever they are, know that the Pens have been a huge success the last 6 years? Or what are you saying?

Pretty sure he saying that we all need to temper our expectations. All winning teams go through these growing pains. We aren't experiencing anything different than any other team. We can't possibly stay on top forever. It also doesn't mean that some level of success cannot be restored next year or the year after.

Yea, but, management says we are trying to get Sids 4th Cup, they are not saying that we are rebuilding or restructuring the team. If you are are not getting past the 1st round for 6 seasons, and the aim is NOT to rebuild you are not doing a good job and lack self-awareness.

[Pitts]

Pretty sure Dubas recently said the aim is to get younger. Seems like a planned restructure to me.

[Three Stars]

Management is ALWAYS going to say they’re trying for championships as long as the barest possibility exists. Can you imagine the outrage if they say “nah, we’re done competing. Enjoy several seasons of exhibition-level hockey while we play out the string”?

That’s how you know it’s over. Dubas jettisoned their top winger and plans to offload the olds, and he said so publically. That’s probably why the team is in a full pout.

[maopens]

Management is ALWAYS going to say they’re trying for championships as long as the barest possibility exists. Can you imagine the outrage if they say “nah, we’re done competing. Enjoy several seasons of exhibition-level hockey while we play out the string”?

That’s how you know it’s over. Dubas jettisoned their top winger and plans to offload the olds, and he said so publically. That’s probably why the team is in a full pout.

"Full Pout" is the perfect description for this team when things aren't going their way. Not just this year but we've seen it in the past.

Don't get me wrong, I have loved watching this group of players since 2005. It's been a great ride but at times they have proven themselves to be emotionally fragile, even weak. They've not been able to handle adversity at times and have folded rather than fight on more than one occassion. I think that is what we are seeing this year.

If these players don't like the position they find themselves in, and don't like losing one of their close buddies, and don't like a potential sell-off then these players should look in the mirror. Who has failed on the power play (regardless of what numbskull is allegedly "coaching" that unit)? They have 4 guys with at least a decade or more of experience and who may all end up in the Hall of Fame - but they can't figure out how to score all season?

I am willing to bash on Sullivan as much as the next guy but these players are always going to be primarily responsible for their results. And their effort, their smarts and their performance have been lacking this entire year. They are where they are in the standings because their play has put them there. Deal with it boys.

[Dynasty1970]

Good points! I am still wondering why we sent Jake to a division rival if we are not doing a complete rebuild. If it is a retool and we are going to try (yet again) to make a run, you don't send the 2nd best guy on the team to a division rival, you just don't do it. So hopefully this team is completely gutted over the summer. I doubt that will happen, which will (like an earlier post calls out with San Jose being 2-3 years ahead of us) extend the pain and lengthen the time it takes to rebuild this team. Likely after Crosby retires. Which is why I say let him chase a cup and get a great return for him. I would look to trade our scouts as well as part of the packages as I don't have any confidence in them whatsoever.

[Three Stars]

Well, there’s no guarantee that the Canes resign Jake. It was a supreme act of personal courage on their part to actually acquire a difference maker at the deadline this year. All of their recent past years were standing pat and then losing in the second round due to a lack of top end talent and scoring, so full marks for dipping an entire foot in the playoff pool.

[FLPensFan]

"If you don't believe we have a chance, I don't think you should be in this locker room," he'd respond, unflinchingly. "I think, deep down in here, we know it's a steep, steep hill to climb. And I'm sure everyone else has written us off. But in here, we believe. We know it's going to take a lot. I think we have what it takes, and we've just gotta dig down and find it."

--Bryan Rust, to DK last night

This goes along with Three Stars post. Players are never going to say, nah, we're cooked either.

[Dynasty1970]

I look at our roster now vs any year in the previous 6-7 years and would take those rosters over this roster. All the while the league around us has gotten younger and faster and we just get older. They can believe all they want but father time has caught up to them.

[HellsKitchen7]

It turns into a chicken and egg debate, though. The coach should be able to motivate players, the players should know how to win at this point...

Like someone said above, not the first time we've seen this look during this generation.

[BigMcK]

Jake's postgame interview tonight after a 1 g, 2 assist night: "Yeah, it's a good road trip for us, we want to make sure we are feeling good here, a good team effort for us. We'll take the win and move on. There's just a lot of high-end players, they're well coached; they play the right way. It's been fun, they've taken me in so far and I've enjoyed everyday."

Good to see he is enjoying his job. Positive vibes...

[Skatingpen]

Jake is playing lights out and has made that team even more of a threat. Good for him

[KG]

Good on Jake. Make it to the cup so we get the Canes first round pick.