Kingerski

[KG]

I don't think a majority of the fans think that the kids in WBS are great players or anything, but they do play with energy, physicality and youthful exuberance.

This team has lacked all of those elements for years now. And when the 4th line played great against Carolina it jolted the team. Sid, Rust, even Sullivan all said they provided a spark.

Then Carter is back in, Gruden gets sent down, Poulin gets sent down and Puljujarvi plays 3 minutes last game. That's what frustrates fans.

Also, playing young players doesn't mean that you are tanking and not trying to win. Playing young players provides juice.

so you would be happy playing Gruden and Poulin along with Puljujarvi on the 4th regularly? You be happy with maybe 10 or 12 goals a season for that entire line total. Puljujarvi might have half of that total. Yikes. That is a winning formula there. Bring on the Cup.

4th line is an energy line. Energy comes from mostly younger players, or you have to spend $3.5mill for a Tanev type. In a perfect world the Pens would/could develop some of their own cheap energy guys. Poulin and Puljujarvi could certainly be regular be 4th line regulars next season, but we don't know that unless they get a chance. I would like to see Ponomarev earn a spot in the lineup next season as well. We shouldn't be spending a bunch of cap on 4th line players.

f you're asking me if I would be OK starting the season with a Poulin-Ponomarev-Puljujarvi 4th line next season as opposed to a Carter-Acciari-Harkins line? yes, I certainly would be.

[Pitts]

Hoping there is a higher ceiling for Ponomarev ... but, yes.

[yinzer69]

is that Sullivan problem or roster construction problem? I would lean more towards the latter. The problem is we just have basically have 2 4th lines for most of the past couple seasons. Although I think if we could get a younger strong 2-way 3C to replace Eller and put between DOC and Puutstinen that has a makings of a good solid 3rd scoring line. Move Eller to the 4th line with Puljujarvi and maybe another winger with some toughness/physicality.

[KG]

is that Sullivan problem or roster construction problem? I would lean more towards the latter. The problem is we just have basically have 2 4th lines for most of the past couple seasons. Although I think if we could get a younger strong 2-way 3C to replace Eller and put between DOC and Puutstinen that has a makings of a good solid 3rd scoring line. Move Eller to the 4th line with Puljujarvi and maybe another winger with some toughness/physicality.

Agreed. The roster is certainly flawed. With an aging core, going with 2 scoring lines, 2 defensive lines was a mistake by both Sullivan and Dubas. This team was/is always at their best when they have depth scoring and balanced lines.

[Antonio]

So basically if the team is built so that I could coach it to victory, Sullivan can succeed so he's a good coach? This team may not be perfectly built by any stretch but I think that's what real quality coaches do .. get results from less than optimal teams. This team shouldn't be as bad as they are and I think that's on Sullivan. Seriously, has this team been so poorly built for over half a decade to keep excusing him?

[Pens4Life]

there are literally people on this board who would have Poulin and Puljujarvi playing 2nd line minutes. Then they will scream when they realize what most logical people know....those guys SUCK.

LOL,what a dumb take,from one extreme to other.. they arent top 6 players, but they can be solid bottom 6 players.. better those two than Harkins, Koppanen, White, Carter, Phillips, etc

You gotta give guys at least 20 games to see what you have, not two periods or 5 games with 6min TOI..

Next season we have to give Poulin ,Ponomarev, Koivunen, Yager and rest of the kids true chance to make it.. Yager probably wont be ready yet,but other 3 guys might be..

[Three Stars]

You gotta give guys at least 20 games to see what you have, not two periods or 5 games with 6min TOI..

No, you don’t. Not at all. Serious organizations don’t do that.

If you’re a young guy trying to make it, you have to make the most of your opportunities no matter how small they are. You gotta show something during your limited time that forces the issue. You don’t get greater opportunities because the fans whine about it.

Sam Poulin has shown no indication that he’s ready for 20 games, so the only instance in which they’d give him 20 games is one in which they simply have no choice. Then you turn into the Buffalo Sabres.

[Three Stars]

[Three Stars]

[VA Fan]

To be honest nothing posted here including all of Kingerski’s tweets is going to convince me that he and his writing is anything more than worthless and something irritating to go through when people quote it. As far as things go I am not overly concerned that Poulin went back down. At this point in the season if you play center you need to win draws. So in goes Carter because if you are in it and whether some fans think so or not the team thinks they are in it so you don’t have time for a young player to learn that on the job unless you can really score.
My issue with Kingerski and people who quote him is the fact that we are currently winning because the players at the top are playing as expected for the last couple of games. That must mean that Mike Sullivan is the best thing ever and a master level puller. If they lose that worthless Gm did not construct the correct roster. My point is that over this past summer when the roster was constructed you could see Mike Sullivan’s preferences for players all over it.

[Three Stars]

His writing is irritating because he often directly refutes things that you and others have convinced yourselves are true. That’s not a comfortable place to be as a fan…to know that your impression is so clouded by misinterpretations and assumptions that you fall into hyperbole and lash out at anyone who might question that impression.

[maopens]

Does Sullivan hate young players? I don't know what is in the man's mind.

Does Sullivan fail to provide younger players sufficient time to prove what they are or are not? Personally, I think there is sufficient evidence over the past 4-5 seasons to say yes. As FLPensFan mentioned earlier, the anti-youth bias appears to be more with forwards than with defense. Perhaps that is merely because the Pens don't have a lot of experienced depth on the back end? Maybe.

I just looked at some stats regarding 2 players traded for each other this year. Alex Nylander and Emil Bemstrom. I'm not going to add any of my thoughts on these players - simply their stats which I think tell the story or at least part of it.

A. Nylander
Games Played: PIT - 5 / CMB - 17
Goals: PIT - 0 / CMB - 10
Assists: PIT - 0 / CMB - 3
Points: PIT - 0 / CMB - 13
TOI: PIT - 13:52 / CMB - 17:03

E. Bemstrom
Games Played: CMB - 32 / PIT - 18
Goals: CMB - 5 / PIT - 2
Assists: CMB - 6 / PIT - 2
Points: CMB - 11 / PIT - 4
TOI: CMB - 12:54 / PIT - 9:39

I understand Nylander is getting more minutes in Columbus because their roster is not as top heavy as the Pens. But when given the opportunity to play more, he certainly has produced in a limited number of games.

In fact, Alex Nylander has scored more in 17 games played in Columbus than has:
- Jansen Harkins (43 games, 0 goals)
- Matt Nieto (22 games, 1 goal) and
- Noel Acciari (55 games, 4 goals)

That's a combined 120 games played with 5 goals produced. Nylander has 10 goals in 17 games.

Are we really to believe that Alex Nylander wasn't good enough to play on a 3rd or 4th line in Pittsburgh, and couldn't have produced more than the collection of stiffs put out there on a 4th line all season? All we heard about in the offseason was the lack of bottom 6 production ... the need for secondary scoring ... blah blah blah.

Nylander didn't produce in the 5 games he was given so he was shipped out for another young guy with alleged upside potential - Bemstrom. He came in and scored in one of his first couple games. He's willing to shoot which this team has needed. So obviously, he gets even less ice time than was given to Nylander in his 5 game cameo appearance.

The numbers seem to tell a story. You can see similar outcomes with other former Penguins (ie Sam Lafferty, Daniel Sprong come to mind).

Not every player sprouts wings in his first week or two in the big leagues.

Some coaches have that mindst of: He doesn't play because he doesn't have enough experience, but without playing time there will never be experience. To my eyes, Sullivan seems to have a bit of this in his DNA.

[VA Fan]

His writing is irritating because he often directly refutes things that you and others have convinced yourselves are true. That’s not a comfortable place to be as a fan…to know that your impression is so clouded by misinterpretations and assumptions that you fall into hyperbole and lash out at anyone who might question that impression.

Not really, Kingerski has never addressed any of my questions. He seems stuck on this does Sullivan hate young players postion.

I will admit I don't think Sullivan hates younger players. He certainly has a type of player he prefers and a roster construction he wants based on that preference. I think those preferences are legitimate topics for discussion.

I think there are many other topics to discuss concerning Mike Sullivan's coaching style. For example, as other have pointed out does not seem to really hold anyone but the younger players accountable for their play. I think that the fact that many players we get rid of for not cutting it here go on and do very well other places is something we need to look at when having the discussion of is it Sullivan or is it the roster.

As far as use of hyperbole and my judgement being clouded well that is certainly one point view and it is a perfectly valid. Pardon me for not sharing it. Also pardon me for not thinking Dan Kingerski's opinion and point of view is something I should feel compelled to agree with.

I think we can discuss Mike Sullivan the coach objectively and question what he does.
 

[Admin]

What is going on here? We are allowed differing opinions, no?

Whatever, back to my playoff hopes and dreams.

[Puck-Lurker]

What is going on here? We are allowed differing opinions, no?

Whatever, back to my playoff hopes and dreams.

You're allowed differing opinions and you may not disagree with this sentence.

It's bizarre how we're somewhere still in far, far orbit of a playoff berth. Perhaps even weirder, I'm pretty much in agreement with some of the more recent lineups?!

[KG]

Pens have been a hot mess for 90% of the season. Now they go on a little run and some think Sullivan deserves another extension.

Like Billy Joel says. “I don’t know why go to extremes”

With a new coach the Pens would easily be in a playoff spot in this disaster of a conference.

[offsides]

The only people that really matter about Sullivan and his extension is FSG and KD. Guess we will find out what they will do with him eventually.

[Pens4Life]

You gotta give guys at least 20 games to see what you have, not two periods or 5 games with 6min TOI..

No, you don’t. Not at all. Serious organizations don’t do that.

If you’re a young guy trying to make it, you have to make the most of your opportunities no matter how small they are. You gotta show something during your limited time that forces the issue. You don’t get greater opportunities because the fans whine about it.

Sam Poulin has shown no indication that he’s ready for 20 games, so the only instance in which they’d give him 20 games is one in which they simply have no choice. Then you turn into the Buffalo Sabres.

Sully is that you?? oh gotcha.. Poulin had 20min to prove himself.. big sample size indeed! I hope you never will be coach in any sports

[Three Stars]

You gotta give guys at least 20 games to see what you have, not two periods or 5 games with 6min TOI..

No, you don’t. Not at all. Serious organizations don’t do that.

If you’re a young guy trying to make it, you have to make the most of your opportunities no matter how small they are. You gotta show something during your limited time that forces the issue. You don’t get greater opportunities because the fans whine about it.

Sam Poulin has shown no indication that he’s ready for 20 games, so the only instance in which they’d give him 20 games is one in which they simply have no choice. Then you turn into the Buffalo Sabres.

Sully is that you?? oh gotcha.. Poulin had 20min to prove himself.. big sample size indeed! I hope you never will be coach in any sports

You could just hold up a big sign that says “I don’t understand” instead of attacking me.

[Puck-Lurker]

You gotta give guys at least 20 games to see what you have, not two periods or 5 games with 6min TOI..

No, you don’t. Not at all. Serious organizations don’t do that.

If you’re a young guy trying to make it, you have to make the most of your opportunities no matter how small they are. You gotta show something during your limited time that forces the issue. You don’t get greater opportunities because the fans whine about it.

Sam Poulin has shown no indication that he’s ready for 20 games, so the only instance in which they’d give him 20 games is one in which they simply have no choice. Then you turn into the Buffalo Sabres.

Sully is that you?? oh gotcha.. Poulin had 20min to prove himself.. big sample size indeed! I hope you never will be coach in any sports

There are many forwards that have shown *less* indication that they're ready for 20 games. About half of them have played more than those 20 (I'll ignore those for this post)

Poulin you needed to see this year what you had in him. I figure about 10 games at ~9.5mins average would've given enough of an insight. Putting that idea to the test:
Puljujärvi has 9:38 ATOI in 18GP. I think we've a decent sample size there.
Hinostroza, 9:45 ATOI, 14GP.
White 9:57 ATOI, 11GP.
Bemström 9:40 ATOI, 18GP.
All given a fair shot at it in my book and we've all been able to judge whether or not they have a place here (on which we will probably almost always disagree )

Poulin: 7:47 ATOI, 3GP. Not enough need more data.

[FLPensFan]

You gotta give guys at least 20 games to see what you have, not two periods or 5 games with 6min TOI..

No, you don’t. Not at all. Serious organizations don’t do that.

If you’re a young guy trying to make it, you have to make the most of your opportunities no matter how small they are. You gotta show something during your limited time that forces the issue. You don’t get greater opportunities because the fans whine about it.

Sam Poulin has shown no indication that he’s ready for 20 games, so the only instance in which they’d give him 20 games is one in which they simply have no choice. Then you turn into the Buffalo Sabres.

Sully is that you?? oh gotcha.. Poulin had 20min to prove himself.. big sample size indeed! I hope you never will be coach in any sports

Three Stars is correct. No way can you give a prospect 10-15-20 games to see what he can do. That's all decided in the minors. If he can't do it in the minors, he'll never do it in the NHL. Nobody ever plays average in the AHL but plays better in the NHL. Never happened in the history of the game. Nobody ever plays great in the AHL only to totally flame out at the NHL level. Seeing in a guy in the minors tells a team everything they need to know about a player.

This is all part of the larger problem with the NHL growing its game. The game and the systems in use have advanced, just like in any sport, and just like in other sports...those advances aren't necessarily for the better longevity of the game. The NHL and MLB have the lowest draft success rate of the 4 major sports. In terms of the NHL, goons are all but gone from 30+ years ago, guys that can't skate can't hang in today's faster paced game, guys that can rip shots and pick corners but suck at defense can't hold down a regular job anymore. In a nutshell, the overall talent pool of the league is very shallow...and Bettman still wants to add more teams.

Back in the 80s and 90s, pre-cap era, a guy played well in the minors, you had an injury, the guy earned a callup. Today's game, sorry Mr. 4th rounder, you've got to show us 1st round abilities to earn a callup, you need a hat trick in one of your first 3 games saddled with Jeff Carter and Noel Acciari, otherwise you just can't cut it in this league.

If it was me, I spent organizational resources, scouting, development time for usually 3-6 years on a player/asset...I'd think I want to do my due dilligence with a player. Now, that's not saying that EVERYONE deserves a chance...but when you've got guys that were at one point slotted as your top prospects, and you can't give them a dozen games at the NHL...maybe the player isn't the problem.

[yinzer69]

You gotta give guys at least 20 games to see what you have, not two periods or 5 games with 6min TOI..

No, you don’t. Not at all. Serious organizations don’t do that.

If you’re a young guy trying to make it, you have to make the most of your opportunities no matter how small they are. You gotta show something during your limited time that forces the issue. You don’t get greater opportunities because the fans whine about it.

Sam Poulin has shown no indication that he’s ready for 20 games, so the only instance in which they’d give him 20 games is one in which they simply have no choice. Then you turn into the Buffalo Sabres.

Sully is that you?? oh gotcha.. Poulin had 20min to prove himself.. big sample size indeed! I hope you never will be coach in any sports

Three Stars is correct. No way can you give a prospect 10-15-20 games to see what he can do. That's all decided in the minors. If he can't do it in the minors, he'll never do it in the NHL. Nobody ever plays average in the AHL but plays better in the NHL. Never happened in the history of the game. Nobody ever plays great in the AHL only to totally flame out at the NHL level. Seeing in a guy in the minors tells a team everything they need to know about a player.

This is all part of the larger problem with the NHL growing its game. The game and the systems in use have advanced, just like in any sport, and just like in other sports...those advances aren't necessarily for the better longevity of the game. The NHL and MLB have the lowest draft success rate of the 4 major sports. In terms of the NHL, goons are all but gone from 30+ years ago, guys that can't skate can't hang in today's faster paced game, guys that can rip shots and pick corners but suck at defense can't hold down a regular job anymore. In a nutshell, the overall talent pool of the league is very shallow...and Bettman still wants to add more teams.

Back in the 80s and 90s, pre-cap era, a guy played well in the minors, you had an injury, the guy earned a callup. Today's game, sorry Mr. 4th rounder, you've got to show us 1st round abilities to earn a callup, you need a hat trick in one of your first 3 games saddled with Jeff Carter and Noel Acciari, otherwise you just can't cut it in this league.

If it was me, I spent organizational resources, scouting, development time for usually 3-6 years on a player/asset...I'd think I want to do my due dilligence with a player. Now, that's not saying that EVERYONE deserves a chance...but when you've got guys that were at one point slotted as your top prospects, and you can't give them a dozen games at the NHL...maybe the player isn't the problem.

I am sure I'll be called a troll or attacked for responding but I disagree with a lot of this.

- If you don't perform in the AHL you are more in likely not going to do anything in the NHL no matter how many games you are given (this doesn't refer to Poulin). Poulin is playing in the role that his ceiling likely is-A 4TH LINER!!! You want to prove you are more than 4th liner, then show something anything (doesn't have to be a hat trick). Poulin has shown me NOTHING (if u get 7 mins of ice team, SHOW US SOMETHING,make the best of your chances)

-I honestly have no clue what this has to do with growing the game??? Prospects not being given "chances" hurts growing the game...might be stretching it there. The NHL and hockey in general could do a lot better in growing the game but prospects not being given a chance or certain skill sets being phased out of the game is not a problem. The NHL is a results orientated big $$$ business, you don't perform, you don't play. This isn't squirt hockey where everyone has to play so we don't hurt anyone's feelings.

- Pretty sure Poulin would of been the next Harkins if given 25-30 games...maybe he could of scored a goal or two. I am sure you are still pissed off about Anthony Angello- he could of been that power forward if only given 50 games on the 2nd line.

and before call me out for hyperbole, if you can do it so can I.

[Three Stars]

[Ericf]

You gotta give guys at least 20 games to see what you have, not two periods or 5 games with 6min TOI..

No, you don’t. Not at all. Serious organizations don’t do that.

If you’re a young guy trying to make it, you have to make the most of your opportunities no matter how small they are. You gotta show something during your limited time that forces the issue. You don’t get greater opportunities because the fans whine about it.

Sam Poulin has shown no indication that he’s ready for 20 games, so the only instance in which they’d give him 20 games is one in which they simply have no choice. Then you turn into the Buffalo Sabres.

Sully is that you?? oh gotcha.. Poulin had 20min to prove himself.. big sample size indeed! I hope you never will be coach in any sports

Three Stars is correct. No way can you give a prospect 10-15-20 games to see what he can do. That's all decided in the minors. If he can't do it in the minors, he'll never do it in the NHL. Nobody ever plays average in the AHL but plays better in the NHL. Never happened in the history of the game. Nobody ever plays great in the AHL only to totally flame out at the NHL level. Seeing in a guy in the minors tells a team everything they need to know about a player.

This is all part of the larger problem with the NHL growing its game. The game and the systems in use have advanced, just like in any sport, and just like in other sports...those advances aren't necessarily for the better longevity of the game. The NHL and MLB have the lowest draft success rate of the 4 major sports. In terms of the NHL, goons are all but gone from 30+ years ago, guys that can't skate can't hang in today's faster paced game, guys that can rip shots and pick corners but suck at defense can't hold down a regular job anymore. In a nutshell, the overall talent pool of the league is very shallow...and Bettman still wants to add more teams.

Back in the 80s and 90s, pre-cap era, a guy played well in the minors, you had an injury, the guy earned a callup. Today's game, sorry Mr. 4th rounder, you've got to show us 1st round abilities to earn a callup, you need a hat trick in one of your first 3 games saddled with Jeff Carter and Noel Acciari, otherwise you just can't cut it in this league.

If it was me, I spent organizational resources, scouting, development time for usually 3-6 years on a player/asset...I'd think I want to do my due dilligence with a player. Now, that's not saying that EVERYONE deserves a chance...but when you've got guys that were at one point slotted as your top prospects, and you can't give them a dozen games at the NHL...maybe the player isn't the problem.

Ah, I mean Rust is better NHL player than he was in the AHL. Pretty mediocre there. Puusty is trending towards being a better NHL player too. It happens that guys can grow their games in the NHL. Rare but does happen

[Admin]

How about leaving it there?