LGP Education thread

[MWB]

Just finished watching Waiting for Superman.

One of the main premises, as mentioned, is that people think low income kids can't learn. Do a lot of people really think that? It just twists around the thought of many people that it's more difficult to get a good education in most inner-city schools. Why is it more difficult? Because there's more kids in gangs, kids with no good parents, crack babies, etc. How can you do a documentary about schooling in NY, LA, and DC and make no mention of the social ills that affect kids in those places? The reason that most of the charter schools have success is because they are getting kids who have involved parents. That makes a huge difference. Every one of the families profiled had parents/care-takers who were extremely concerned about their child's education. So when you take those kids, put them all in one school, you've got a great chance of being successful. How does that translate to all schools?

KIPP schools was one of the success stories talked about. They seem to have had quite a bit of success, but again using the same strategy of getting kids with involved parents. That's fine, and that's great for those kids. But that doesn't mean it can be expanded across the board. In fact, when KIPP tried to take over a regular public school in Denver, it pulled out after two years, and they decided they wouldn't do it again. Some of the KIPP schools also have fairly high attrition rates as well.

The other main focus was on DC and Michelle Rhee. Rhee, who taught for three years, was never an administrator, and never ran a school, was given total control of DC schools. Came in with huge ideas. Her plan of merit pay may have been a good one (again, a plan that was ultimately accepted by the union), but the movie didn't really outline the plan. It just said "tenure with less pay or no tenure with more pay." That's catchy, but what exactly was involved with the merit pay and what was involved in the evaluations? What would teachers have to do to get $140 k a year? It was never mentioned. Rhee shut down 23 schools, which is most likely what led to her being fired after just three years. She also fired a bunch of teachers (some rightfully it seems), but also made up stories about why they were fired. Test scores improved somewhat, but there's also been reports of wide-spread cheating on assessments.

It was an interesting movie, I just wish it would have been more well-rounded.

[tifosi77]

The reason that most of the charter schools have success is because they are getting kids who have involved parents.

While I certainly agree that the biggest factor in academic success is parental involvement (what I call "a high give a sh!tedness factor"), there is a semantic correction in this statement I wish to make.

Most charter schools do not have success, if success be deemed better performance on standardized testing by students. In fact, about half of them offer no measurable improvements over matched public schools (other than giving status-obsessed parents something to pat themselves on the back about), and 2 out of 5 are actually worse. Only about 17% or 18% of charter schools actually offer any significant improvements in student performance, and a lot of those numbers are loaded (i.e. the aforementioned dismissal of poorly performing students right before test time so their low scores won't impact the overall average of the school).

I know it's pedantic and seriously obsessive-compulsive to point that out; I just have a thorn in my side when it comes to the manic adulation that charter schools get that somehow remains almost completely devoid of any critical thought or analysis.

[MWB]

Yes, you are correct. My statement was meant as "the reason that most of the charter schools that have success are successful mainly because..." Again, something the director should have given more time to is a more concise comparison and evaluation of charters.

[canaan]

dont know if already posted, but lol http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... high-scho/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[shmenguin]

Nope... it's lazy teachers and corrupt teachers unions, no one else.

According to that dude from stanford in the documentary if you could fire the bottom 10% of teachers and replace them with average teachers all of our problems would be solved. So, why not try this? Every other professional industry works like this. The worst engineer gets canned, the worst lawyer doesn't make partner and/or is canned, the worst doctor gets canned.

as it stands, if schools are to be treated as a professional industry, then the client would be the state government. more importantly, the client would NOT be the children being taught. that right there is why you can't treat schools like a private business.

[Pavel Bure]

dont know if already posted, but lol http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... high-scho/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stupid. College isn't for everyone.

[MWB]

dont know if already posted, but lol http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... high-scho/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stupid. College isn't for everyone.

Agreed. Seems like a way of discouraging kids from graduating HS.

[tjand72]

dont know if already posted, but lol http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... high-scho/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stupid. College isn't for everyone.

I was thinking more along the lines of 'disgusting', but the sentiment seems to be the same.

[Draftnik]

That is absurd to mandate kids apply to college as a HS graduation requirement. I'm sure that would be overturned if somebody challenged the legality of the requirement.

That said, I do think schools need to do more to educate parents about why it is important that they stress the importance of academic achievement to their kids. Government agencies (Dept of Labor?) do long range forecasting about what type of professions will have a shortage of employees in 5, 10, etc years into the future. Schools should package that information with empirical data regarding lifetime earning differentials for people that obtain PhDs, MBAs, graduate college, graduate HS, drop out of HS, etc so parents have context to understand why they need to motivate their kids to do well in school. That would motivate some families & kids and give them tangible goals. Parents need a roadmap to help them guide their kids. Leaving low income parents to figure this out on their own is an unmitigated failure at the macro level.

[Point Breeze Penguins]

You could torture parents in Carrick and that would not change their minds concerning their need to check their kids homework.

[MWB]

You may be right that it would help some parents, Draftnik, but I think it would be fairly minimal. The parents that don't already have a vested interest in their child's education won't be interested in that info. Sad but true.

[Draftnik]

We can't give up on coming up with ways to engage parents to take an interest in their children's education. That is why I said earlier we need a war like effort. Its amazing that our country cares about all kinds of nonsense like gay marriage yet pays lip service to education.

South Korea's secret to success:

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com ... education/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

President Obama has noticed, singing Korea’s praises on a regular basis. On a visit to Seoul in 2009, he asked South Korean president Lee Myung-bak what his biggest challenge was in education. The president’s reply? Korean parents care too much about their children’s success.

[MWB]

How do you get parents to care more? The ones that don't care won't be willing to listen to advice. I just don't see how you effectively get that message out to the parents who would actually care about it but don't already do what they can for their kids.

[Draftnik]

I don't pretend to know how to make parents care more, but the issue of economic competitiveness is an issue of paramount importance. Politicians such as Corbett pretend to care about the issue by talking vouchers, but in reality that is just a way for his religious constituency to have taxpayers subsidize their children's parochial education.

The real standard of living for America's middle class has declined for years and things will only get worse as technology, automation, and globalization continue to make uneducated workers more unemployable at anything but minimum wage service industry jobs.

The attitude that things have always been that way so they can never change is a pathetic way to approach a problem.

Politicians care about people on welfare taking drugs but what about the institutional ignorance and unemployability they are bequeathing their offspring? That will continue the cycle of poverty for generations. If politicians want to make welfare recipients sober, why not come up with a mechanism to make them take an interest in their children's education to break the cycle of ignorance?

I wouldn't expect to personally come up with the solution, but smarter people than me certainly should be able to.

[MWB]

Just watched CNN special on education. It compared South Korea and Finland, two of the top education countries.

SK kids go to school more (about an hour more per day, 25 days more per year) than US kids. Parents spend about 25% of their income on tutors. Many take evening "cram" schools. However, they've also had suicide rates double in the last 8 years among school kids.

Finnish kids go to school less than US kids and don't start school until age 7. Teachers spend little time preparing for standardized tests and focus more on creativity.

What do they have in common? Teaching is a difficult profession to get into. Turnover is minimal (1% in SK, 2% in Finland. Teachers have more autonomy in how they teach.

[columbia]

'If eight slaves pick 56 oranges...' Georgia school under fire for racist, violent math homework
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1iq2ynn7l" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Physical_Graffiti]

But the problems weren't given with any historical background confusing the students who asked their parents why someone was being beaten twice a day

Just let them figure it out on their own, that's the right way to teach someone.

[MWB]

'The teachers were trying to do a cross-curricular activity,' Spokeswoman Sloan Roach explained to WSB-TV in their intended attempt to mix history with math.

Yes, that's a great cross-curricular activity. :roll:

[count2infinity]

lol...that's a bit ridiculous. trying to mix history with math? can't you do that with other things like money, national debt, number of states, etc?

[Physical_Graffiti]

Our textbooks do it all the time, just in a better way, lol: "Mario Lemieux scored x goals in y games at the 87 Canada Cup; what was his gpg average?"

[columbia]

If LGP political thread has 100 posters and 8 have been banded over the last year and half, what is the monthly ban average?

[obhave]

Maybe this is the appropriate thread to ask this question:

Does anyone here have experience with Teach for America? I am taking a year or two off after undergrad and am seriously considering doing this. I have heard greatly differing views on this program. Is it worth it? Are there other programs I should also look into?

[Physical_Graffiti]

lol...that's a bit ridiculous. trying to mix history with math? can't you do that with other things like money, national debt, number of states, etc?

What school did you go to that had math books that were written yesterday?

[columbia]

Maybe this is the appropriate thread to ask this question:

Does anyone here have experience with Teach for America? I am taking a year or two off after undergrad and am seriously considering doing this. I have heard greatly differing views on this program. Is it worth it? Are there other programs I should also look into?

I considered it at some point and realized that I shouldn't, as I had no desire to make a career as a teacher.
I do know that some teachers don't really care for people biding their time in education, while they figure out what to do with their life and I can't say that I blame them.

[obhave]

Maybe this is the appropriate thread to ask this question:

Does anyone here have experience with Teach for America? I am taking a year or two off after undergrad and am seriously considering doing this. I have heard greatly differing views on this program. Is it worth it? Are there other programs I should also look into?

I considered it at some point and realized that I shouldn't, as I had no desire to make a career as a teacher.
I do know that some teachers don't really care for people biding their time in education, while they figure out what to do with their life and I can't say that I blame them.

I know that I want to teach, just not sure at what level yet. I would prefer being a lab teacher or prof, but those are some lofty goals.