Would you trade 2025 8th overall for Mason McTavish?

[FLPensFan]

I have one question. Assuming we could trade for MacTavish. Were would we expect him to slot in our expected group of forwards next year? He will be in Pittsburgh unlike whoever we most likely would draft with our 1st. Would we expect him as the 2C in this hypothetical scenario or is he the 3C next year and then presumably becomes the 2C? I am assuming we are not expecting him to play wing.

I think that depends on Geno. One scenario would have him playing with Sid, and let's say Rust, with McTavish as 2C. If Geno plays 2C then we'd probably see 3 scoring lines.

Rust-Crosby-Malkin
McGroarty-McTavish-Rakell

McGroarty-Crosby-Rust
Koivunen-Geno-Rakell
Dewar-McTavish-Tomasino

What is nice is, they would have the flexibility to do either. There's an argument for both approaches. Malkin is clearly wearing down and declining. He's not going to hit 20 goals this year, his first non-injury, non-shortened season that he fails to do it. Rakell has 20 more points on the season. With 5 games remaining, Geno needs 4 points to hit 50.

My first choice would be to put Malkin on the LW with Crosby and Rust, and make RMG-McTavish-Koivunen be your 2nd line. Or they could bump McTavish to 3rd line, knowing it is just for next year since Malkin should retire after next season.

[Victor]

I'm not sure even they will draft in the top 8 at this point. Of their 5 remaining games, 2 are against Chicago and one against Boston. It's not unrealistic to see them finish the season with 80 points.

[Daniel]

I have one question. Assuming we could trade for MacTavish. Were would we expect him to slot in our expected group of forwards next year? He will be in Pittsburgh unlike whoever we most likely would draft with our 1st. Would we expect him as the 2C in this hypothetical scenario or is he the 3C next year and then presumably becomes the 2C? I am assuming we are not expecting him to play wing.

I think that depends on Geno. One scenario would have him playing with Sid, and let's say Rust, with McTavish as 2C. If Geno plays 2C then we'd probably see 3 scoring lines.

Rust-Crosby-Malkin
McGroarty-McTavish-Rakell

McGroarty-Crosby-Rust
Koivunen-Geno-Rakell
Dewar-McTavish-Tomasino

What is nice is, they would have the flexibility to do either. There's an argument for both approaches. Malkin is clearly wearing down and declining. He's not going to hit 20 goals this year, his first non-injury, non-shortened season that he fails to do it. Rakell has 20 more points on the season. With 5 games remaining, Geno needs 4 points to hit 50.

My first choice would be to put Malkin on the LW with Crosby and Rust, and make RMG-McTavish-Koivunen be your 2nd line. Or they could bump McTavish to 3rd line, knowing it is just for next year since Malkin should retire after next season.

WIth your 2 lines, where is Rakell? If he wasn't traded at the deadline, I don't see him traded at the draft. Depending on their thoughts on Novak, we could easily see Rakell with him and maybe Tomasino on the 3rd line to all of a sudden have 3 scoring lines.

If Dubas makes some good changes in the offseason, including (especially?) getting rid of Sullivan, I can see this team making one more run next year or the year after. One more thing to discuss, if WBS goes far in the playoffs, how does that impact next season i terms of coaching and promotions?

[FLPensFan]

I have one question. Assuming we could trade for MacTavish. Were would we expect him to slot in our expected group of forwards next year? He will be in Pittsburgh unlike whoever we most likely would draft with our 1st. Would we expect him as the 2C in this hypothetical scenario or is he the 3C next year and then presumably becomes the 2C? I am assuming we are not expecting him to play wing.

I think that depends on Geno. One scenario would have him playing with Sid, and let's say Rust, with McTavish as 2C. If Geno plays 2C then we'd probably see 3 scoring lines.

Rust-Crosby-Malkin
McGroarty-McTavish-Rakell

McGroarty-Crosby-Rust
Koivunen-Geno-Rakell
Dewar-McTavish-Tomasino

What is nice is, they would have the flexibility to do either. There's an argument for both approaches. Malkin is clearly wearing down and declining. He's not going to hit 20 goals this year, his first non-injury, non-shortened season that he fails to do it. Rakell has 20 more points on the season. With 5 games remaining, Geno needs 4 points to hit 50.

My first choice would be to put Malkin on the LW with Crosby and Rust, and make RMG-McTavish-Koivunen be your 2nd line. Or they could bump McTavish to 3rd line, knowing it is just for next year since Malkin should retire after next season.

WIth your 2 lines, where is Rakell? If he wasn't traded at the deadline, I don't see him traded at the draft. Depending on their thoughts on Novak, we could easily see Rakell with him and maybe Tomasino on the 3rd line to all of a sudden have 3 scoring lines.

If Dubas makes some good changes in the offseason, including (especially?) getting rid of Sullivan, I can see this team making one more run next year or the year after. One more thing to discuss, if WBS goes far in the playoffs, how does that impact next season i terms of coaching and promotions?

I think this is the default lineup I would start with:

McGroarty-Crosby-Rust
Rakell-Malkin-Koivunen
Novak-McTavish-Tomasino
Dewar-Lizotte-Acciari
X-Hayes, Heinen

That's assuming all of Acciari, Hayes, and Heinen are still here. This allows for a few things:
--At times, Malkin can slide up and replace McGroarty, McTavish slides up to replace Malkin, Novak slides into 3C and McGroarty plays 3LW. That can be used if they are ahead/behind or if there are injuries.
--Dewar and Heinen can trade off, depending on who is hot or cold, and Hayes can come in at 4LW or 4C for Lizotte.
--I'm still not sold on Novak or Tomasino. Tomasino has only 1 goal in his past 15 games, and he has another streak earlier where he had only 1 goal in 17 games. He's got to be a little more consistent. Novak has been injured to get a great feel on him.
--People won't like no spot for Ponomarev but honestly, we need some level of reinforcements in WBS. I'm fine if he starts there and becomes an injury callup.
--I also realize I forgot Hallander. I could see him battling Novak for that 3LW spot, but that will mean one of Heinen or Hayes can't be on the roster. Personally, I'd waive Heinen to WBS or trade him if there is any type of taker for him, even for future considerations just to get rid of him.

Reports I keep reading is that Dubas is going to be aggressive this summer. I could see him going after someone like Marner, but, that isn't going to work unless he can move probably 2 of Jarry, Graves or Karlsson. He's also expected to try and rework the left D. I've heard Bowen Byram's name as a trade or offer sheet target.

[Antonio]

Can I trade the 8th to get rid of Sullivan?

[Daniel]

Can I trade the 8th to get rid of Sullivan?

He’s a top 2 or 3 coach, they might get a #8 for Sullivan.

[Daniel]

I have one question. Assuming we could trade for MacTavish. Were would we expect him to slot in our expected group of forwards next year? He will be in Pittsburgh unlike whoever we most likely would draft with our 1st. Would we expect him as the 2C in this hypothetical scenario or is he the 3C next year and then presumably becomes the 2C? I am assuming we are not expecting him to play wing.

I think that depends on Geno. One scenario would have him playing with Sid, and let's say Rust, with McTavish as 2C. If Geno plays 2C then we'd probably see 3 scoring lines.

Rust-Crosby-Malkin
McGroarty-McTavish-Rakell

McGroarty-Crosby-Rust
Koivunen-Geno-Rakell
Dewar-McTavish-Tomasino

What is nice is, they would have the flexibility to do either. There's an argument for both approaches. Malkin is clearly wearing down and declining. He's not going to hit 20 goals this year, his first non-injury, non-shortened season that he fails to do it. Rakell has 20 more points on the season. With 5 games remaining, Geno needs 4 points to hit 50.

My first choice would be to put Malkin on the LW with Crosby and Rust, and make RMG-McTavish-Koivunen be your 2nd line. Or they could bump McTavish to 3rd line, knowing it is just for next year since Malkin should retire after next season.

WIth your 2 lines, where is Rakell? If he wasn't traded at the deadline, I don't see him traded at the draft. Depending on their thoughts on Novak, we could easily see Rakell with him and maybe Tomasino on the 3rd line to all of a sudden have 3 scoring lines.

If Dubas makes some good changes in the offseason, including (especially?) getting rid of Sullivan, I can see this team making one more run next year or the year after. One more thing to discuss, if WBS goes far in the playoffs, how does that impact next season i terms of coaching and promotions?

I think this is the default lineup I would start with:

McGroarty-Crosby-Rust
Rakell-Malkin-Koivunen
Novak-McTavish-Tomasino
Dewar-Lizotte-Acciari
X-Hayes, Heinen

That's assuming all of Acciari, Hayes, and Heinen are still here. This allows for a few things:
--At times, Malkin can slide up and replace McGroarty, McTavish slides up to replace Malkin, Novak slides into 3C and McGroarty plays 3LW. That can be used if they are ahead/behind or if there are injuries.
--Dewar and Heinen can trade off, depending on who is hot or cold, and Hayes can come in at 4LW or 4C for Lizotte.
--I'm still not sold on Novak or Tomasino. Tomasino has only 1 goal in his past 15 games, and he has another streak earlier where he had only 1 goal in 17 games. He's got to be a little more consistent. Novak has been injured to get a great feel on him.
--People won't like no spot for Ponomarev but honestly, we need some level of reinforcements in WBS. I'm fine if he starts there and becomes an injury callup.
--I also realize I forgot Hallander. I could see him battling Novak for that 3LW spot, but that will mean one of Heinen or Hayes can't be on the roster. Personally, I'd waive Heinen to WBS or trade him if there is any type of taker for him, even for future considerations just to get rid of him.

Reports I keep reading is that Dubas is going to be aggressive this summer. I could see him going after someone like Marner, but, that isn't going to work unless he can move probably 2 of Jarry, Graves or Karlsson. He's also expected to try and rework the left D. I've heard Bowen Byram's name as a trade or offer sheet target.

Marner’s an interesting situation for the Penguins. Unless they think they can compete for a cup without a few rebuild, I wouldn’t get him. It’s easier to rebuild on the fly because UFA is younger and parity, so maybe they have a quick turnaround.

McGroarty-Crosby-Rust
Rakell-Malkin-Marner
Novak-McTavish-Koivunen
Dewar-Lizotte-Acciari

With some tweaks through the reason (and no more Sullivan), is that a Stanley Cup contending lineup? Let’s presume Ned/Blomqvist with Blomqvist coming in and fixes his issues.

[Antonio]

Can I trade the 8th to get rid of Sullivan?

He’s a top 2 or 3 coach, they might get a #8 for Sullivan.

True...if you trade Sully you would just be spending picks on looking for Sully

[100565]

During McTavish's 3 seasons, he has third most total points. Terry has 168, Vatrano has 143, and McTavish has 134. The highest point total for a single season during those three years is Zegras's 65 in 22-23. McTavish sits 6th highest point total for a single season during those three years with 49 points this year. Terry has seasons of 61, 54, and 53. Vatrano had a season with 60.

No one has been producing points on the Ducks.

I think McTavish would produce about 60-70points next season if he was on the Pens. Whoever they draft at 8th would hopefully produce that 4 years from now.

Its a no brainer with very little chance the Ducks would be interested. Perhaps financial reasons, otherwise no. Pens have plenty of cap space.

[john66]

I said yes, even if it were 8th overall. And the reason is, you just don't know what you are getting in the draft. A top 10 overall pick has about a 95% rate of making it to the NHL and playing at least a game, and even 100 games. But you can still have a guy go top 10 who may be projected as a 70-90 point elite player end up being only a 40-50 point 2nd line type player. You just don't know.

Add in that at 22, that's still quite young, and you have 3 seasons of history to get an idea of what his production range can be, and that he could help next season where a Frondell, Desnoyers, etc is likely 2-4 years away....that makes it a no brainer for me.

This 100%. You take a known commodity over an 18 year old unknown everytime.

I think next year, it's time to win.

Is he a known commodity though? 48 points is his best after 3 years and I think Desnoyers/Frondell can get that many points in their rookie year. If Sid/Geno were 5 years younger and the team was retooling rather than rebuilding, I’d agree, but they need a complete tear down and I’d rather the 4 more years of player control. McTavish is already an RFA and will be a UFA soon. I doubt Sid or Geno will ever get close to the Stanley Cup as a Penguin, so why do the trade? If McTavish is a known quality, it’s at 50 points.

I get your point. But, I would offer that this "rebuild" is on a faster timeline than folks around here think. The roster will look much different in October. Sid will win another cup with the Pens. Maybe 2. One at age 40, another at age 44.

[Daniel]

I said yes, even if it were 8th overall. And the reason is, you just don't know what you are getting in the draft. A top 10 overall pick has about a 95% rate of making it to the NHL and playing at least a game, and even 100 games. But you can still have a guy go top 10 who may be projected as a 70-90 point elite player end up being only a 40-50 point 2nd line type player. You just don't know.

Add in that at 22, that's still quite young, and you have 3 seasons of history to get an idea of what his production range can be, and that he could help next season where a Frondell, Desnoyers, etc is likely 2-4 years away....that makes it a no brainer for me.

This 100%. You take a known commodity over an 18 year old unknown everytime.

I think next year, it's time to win.

Is he a known commodity though? 48 points is his best after 3 years and I think Desnoyers/Frondell can get that many points in their rookie year. If Sid/Geno were 5 years younger and the team was retooling rather than rebuilding, I’d agree, but they need a complete tear down and I’d rather the 4 more years of player control. McTavish is already an RFA and will be a UFA soon. I doubt Sid or Geno will ever get close to the Stanley Cup as a Penguin, so why do the trade? If McTavish is a known quality, it’s at 50 points.

I get your point. But, I would offer that this "rebuild" is on a faster timeline than folks around here think. The roster will look much different in October. Sid will win another cup with the Pens. Maybe 2. One at age 40, another at age 44.

It might be and I know it doesn't take the usual 5 years to rebuild in modern sports. I hope that's true and go back and forth on my opinion about how long it'll take. We'll see.

[Victor]

I'm not sure tearing it all down is a viable option these days. You need a superstar to make it work. It worked for Pittsburgh with Crosby and Malkin. Edmonton is a contender with McDavid and Draisatl, they also had the luck to draft first overall 4 times in 6 years, from 2010-2015. Toronto has Matthews, and so on. There is a group of perennial rebuilders who really struggle to really up their play to the next level as well. Detroit fans are annoyed by the Yzerplan at this point. Anaheim had their last season above .500 before the pandemic. Arizona/Utah had ownership issues. Buffalo is likely cursed. I'm happy to see the Flyers struggle though. A rebuild from the ground up can easily take 10 years.

Boston is one of the teams that will be interesting to watch. They have some interesting pieces. Pastrnak is in his prime, McAvoy is their #1D, but currently injured. However, their top forwards are Elias Lindholm, Mittelstadt and Zacha. Zadorov is their best dman in the lineup as Hampus Lindholm is also injured. They signed Swayman for 8.25M for 8 years and he struggled in year 1, as did the whole team. They traded away Marchand. Their prospect pool is thin, ranked only 30th by the Athletic. They have 27M in cap space, but only 13 players under contract for next season. They probably struggle next season as well.

Montreal, on the other hand, is to me a fascinating case. They are now in WC spot and have one player drafted by them in the top 12. Slafkovský was drafted 1st overall in 2022 and was probably rushed. Caufield was drafted #15 in 2019, Kaiden Guhle #16 in 2020. Hutson was a 2nd rounder. Nick Suzuki was taken #13 overall by Vegas in 2017.

Dubas also never hinted doing it while Sid is still playing. Not trading Rakell at the deadline is a solid indication of it. Maybe he'll try to go big in the UFA this summer and bring guys like Marner and Provorov. Bring a young player in a potential Karlsson deal and/or using future draft picks. There are more ways to build a team. We'll see indeed.

[Daniel]

I'm not sure tearing it all down is a viable option these days. You need a superstar to make it work. It worked for Pittsburgh with Crosby and Malkin. Edmonton is a contender with McDavid and Draisatl, they also had the luck to draft first overall 4 times in 6 years, from 2010-2015. Toronto has Matthews, and so on. There is a group of perennial rebuilders who really struggle to really up their play to the next level as well. Detroit fans are annoyed by the Yzerplan at this point. Anaheim had their last season above .500 before the pandemic. Arizona/Utah had ownership issues. Buffalo is likely cursed. I'm happy to see the Flyers struggle though. A rebuild from the ground up can easily take 10 years.

Boston is one of the teams that will be interesting to watch. They have some interesting pieces. Pastrnak is in his prime, McAvoy is their #1D, but currently injured. However, their top forwards are Elias Lindholm, Mittelstadt and Zacha. Zadorov is their best dman in the lineup as Hampus Lindholm is also injured. They signed Swayman for 8.25M for 8 years and he struggled in year 1, as did the whole team. They traded away Marchand. Their prospect pool is thin, ranked only 30th by the Athletic. They have 27M in cap space, but only 13 players under contract for next season. They probably struggle next season as well.

Montreal, on the other hand, is to me a fascinating case. They are now in WC spot and have one player drafted by them in the top 12. Slafkovský was drafted 1st overall in 2022 and was probably rushed. Caufield was drafted #15 in 2019, Kaiden Guhle #16 in 2020. Hutson was a 2nd rounder. Nick Suzuki was taken #13 overall by Vegas in 2017.

Dubas also never hinted doing it while Sid is still playing. Not trading Rakell at the deadline is a solid indication of it. Maybe he'll try to go big in the UFA this summer and bring guys like Marner and Provorov. Bring a young player in a potential Karlsson deal and/or using future draft picks. There are more ways to build a team. We'll see indeed.

I'll use football as an analogy. The Steelers had a great defense, great RB, great WR, OL, etc, but needed a QB. One bad season, one draft of Big Ben, rest is history.

The Penguins have great bottom 6 forwards, one or two of which will become top 6 (McGroarty and Koivunen?), this years 1st round pick will likely make it 3 top 6 (hopefully a C). They have decent defense, could always use more, and really good young goaltending.

One top 5 pick, one superstar, ready to contend in 2-3 years. I think the biggest problem is teams don't build the bottom 6, look at Edmonton, and think they need a bunch of superstars. Who is McDavid's Dupuis or Kunitz? Who is Bouchards Dumoulin?

[Victor]

Edmonton's wing depth is bad. They might have the best 1-2-3 centers in the league, but can't use them as centers much often. No wonder they took chances in guys like Skinner and Perry.

Ekholm gave their top pairing much needed stability. Too bad for them he's already 34. He made Karlsson not look like a tyre fire during 4 Nations.

[Cow_Master66]

I hope they don’t trade that pick for anything unless it’s for more picks in the next 2-3 drafts.

[Victor]

I hope they don’t trade that pick for anything unless it’s for more picks in the next 2-3 drafts.

I'd say that's very unlikely. Dubas wants to make this team better soon. Unless there's something in the shape of one of the trades with STL, 2nd 2025 and 5th 2026 for 2nd 2026 and 3rd 2025, I'd expect to either bring players in for picks, like the Tomasino and Timmins/Dewar trades, or younger players that are closer to NHL ready, similalrly to the McGroarty-Yager deal.

[Maestro]

What I'd like to see in 25-26

McGroarty - Crosby - Marner

Rakell - McT - Rust

Koivunen - Geno - Tomasino

Lizotte - Novak - Hayes

Heinen/Ponomaryov

D

Timmons - EK65

Kaiden Guhle* - Brunicke

Pickering - Shea

Graves

*Guhle obtained in Letang trade


G - John Gibosn (in Jarry trade)
Murashov

[FLPensFan]

Just to kind of close the loop on this thread, I ran this poll on Twitter at the same time, only that poll just had a Yes/No option for would you trade 8th overall for McTavish.

It finished with 181 total votes, with 93 against, 88 for....very close.

[BigMcK]

Just to kind of close the loop on this thread, I ran this poll on Twitter at the same time, only that poll just had a Yes/No option for would you trade 8th overall for McTavish.

It finished with 181 total votes, with 93 against, 88 for....very close.

If what I would guess for this proposal, and hesitation to answer yes, is that the current coach has established a proven record of treating young players like utter garbage. Make a rookie mistake, you are benched. Play the 34 year old veteran instead. He's much more capable of accepting the role.

My interest in my team hasn't changed. However; if 8 year loser coach is behind the bench next season, with full endorsement from leadership of what a capable coach he is (he isn't!), that interest puts me in the rafters eating nachos. I call it as I taste it --- needs more jalapeños, and less BS!

[Cow_Master66]

I hope they don’t trade that pick for anything unless it’s for more picks in the next 2-3 drafts.

I'd say that's very unlikely. Dubas wants to make this team better soon. Unless there's something in the shape of one of the trades with STL, 2nd 2025 and 5th 2026 for 2nd 2026 and 3rd 2025, I'd expect to either bring players in for picks, like the Tomasino and Timmins/Dewar trades, or younger players that are closer to NHL ready, similalrly to the McGroarty-Yager deal.

I agree, I think Dubas is under pressure to turn it around quickly and open some extra magical 2-3 year window with Crosby still playing at a high level. I personally hate the thought this personally, but I do think this is the approach they will take. I think that’s why they didn’t move Rackell, didn’t ask Rust to waive his NTC, etc.

To dovetail in the football analogy that was used above, this team doesn’t have great wingers, great D, good goaltending, etc. They have a bunch of dudes that are at the end of the line. Some are already past the line, yet still playing 20 minutes a night.

They could have turned it around quickly if they could have parted ways with some familiar faces, but they opted not to. It was a dumb way to do business, but I accepted it as a fan, knowing this franchise was pushing back a true rebuild 3 extra years.

The problem is now, if what we believe Dubas is looking to do is true, run the risk of pushing the next truly competitive window out even further. Because, in order to really try to win another cup in the next 3 years, they would have to trade what little assets they have in terms of picks and prospects. Take Mushy for example….a potential superstar goalie, would almost certainly have to be moved. Certainly all your high picks would be gone.

I just think the risk of mortgaging yet again to try for a cup with a team that depends on so many guys 35+ years old, is totally unrealistic.

Rant over….i do think this is the route they will go though, so let’s enjoy the ride I suppose.

[FLPensFan]

I hope they don’t trade that pick for anything unless it’s for more picks in the next 2-3 drafts.

I'd say that's very unlikely. Dubas wants to make this team better soon. Unless there's something in the shape of one of the trades with STL, 2nd 2025 and 5th 2026 for 2nd 2026 and 3rd 2025, I'd expect to either bring players in for picks, like the Tomasino and Timmins/Dewar trades, or younger players that are closer to NHL ready, similalrly to the McGroarty-Yager deal.

I agree, I think Dubas is under pressure to turn it around quickly and open some extra magical 2-3 year window with Crosby still playing at a high level. I personally hate the thought this personally, but I do think this is the approach they will take. I think that’s why they didn’t move Rackell, didn’t ask Rust to waive his NTC, etc.

To dovetail in the football analogy that was used above, this team doesn’t have great wingers, great D, good goaltending, etc. They have a bunch of dudes that are at the end of the line. Some are already past the line, yet still playing 20 minutes a night.

They could have turned it around quickly if they could have parted ways with some familiar faces, but they opted not to. It was a dumb way to do business, but I accepted it as a fan, knowing this franchise was pushing back a true rebuild 3 extra years.

The problem is now, if what we believe Dubas is looking to do is true, run the risk of pushing the next truly competitive window out even further. Because, in order to really try to win another cup in the next 3 years, they would have to trade what little assets they have in terms of picks and prospects. Take Mushy for example….a potential superstar goalie, would almost certainly have to be moved. Certainly all your high picks would be gone.

I just think the risk of mortgaging yet again to try for a cup with a team that depends on so many guys 35+ years old, is totally unrealistic.

Rant over….i do think this is the route they will go though, so let’s enjoy the ride I suppose.

A couple of thoughts and comments here:

--We have 18 picks over the first 3 rounds of the next 3 drafts. We have plenty of draft capital right now.

--McGroarty, Koivunen, Pieniniemi, Brunicke, and Murashov should be our current untouchables. If the Penguins feel they need to move Broz, Pickering, Blomqvist, Howe, etc to help upgrade the team with an under 25 year old player, I don't have a problem with that.

--It's early, and I'm sure some of it is the first 3-5 game adrenaline jump, but RMG and Koivunen are greatly impressing, and showing traits of being able to handle top 6 roles moving forward. It's not just "oh, McGroarty has a goal and some assists, he's great." Watch him closely. He rarely goes above the dots in the offensive zone, and if he does, it is usually just to move and reposition himself. He is the complete opposite of a perimeter player. He's always in the dirty areas. I don't see issues with his skating, his IQ is very high, and he's very good defensively. At a minimum, I think he's Rust 2.0.

--I think we need to be reminded of how spoiled we are as Penguins fans....Lemieux-->Jagr--Sid/Geno. Dynasty for about 5 years in the early 90s, dynasty for most of the Sid and Geno era. The chances of this team rebuilding and immediately getting another player in the 66/68/87/71 realm are actually pretty slim, and so are the chances of building another dynasty. I think Penguins fans are going to have to get used to more having 5-8 year windows, and relying more on overall team concept than a generational talent.

--Expanding on the last point, I think as long as Sid is a 20 point, 60-70 point player, he may continue playing. Right now, I think he outlives the extension he just signed. Maybe he goes to a year by year status after that. Malkin I believe retires next season, as he's clearly declining. Letang, I think he gets traded before his contract ends. So, I think very soon, Sid will be the only one of the core left. And, with RMG and Koivunen exceeding my expectations or cautious optimism, this team might not be that far away from being annually competitive. This is why I keep hammering top 6 centers and top pairing d-men. This is why I started the poll about McTavish, because getting a young 2C would be a big add for this team. You could leave Sid with Rakell and Rust, and put McTavish with RMG and Koivunen. Get some good tweeners to play with Malkin next year on the 3rd line...so if any of the top 6 wingers are injured we have adequate replacements....not someone like Cody Glass or Connor Dewar. Remaking the defense will be a bit tougher.

[Puck-Lurker]

Agreed on McGroarty. He's like the Anti-Sprong. Constantly going to the right places, lots of awareness and hockey smarts and I could see him become a strong two way player. I really like this guy.

But much more than that, I am thrilled to see him get a chance to learn from Sid AND Rust on that line. Those are model players, the definition thereof.

Koivunen with Malkin and Rakell too. If that's some kind of idea to mentor Ville and Rutger, I highly approve. Even the personalities line up pretty well with the top two lines. Hoping it plants a seed for the future!

[Daniel]

I hope they don’t trade that pick for anything unless it’s for more picks in the next 2-3 drafts.

I'd say that's very unlikely. Dubas wants to make this team better soon. Unless there's something in the shape of one of the trades with STL, 2nd 2025 and 5th 2026 for 2nd 2026 and 3rd 2025, I'd expect to either bring players in for picks, like the Tomasino and Timmins/Dewar trades, or younger players that are closer to NHL ready, similalrly to the McGroarty-Yager deal.

I agree, I think Dubas is under pressure to turn it around quickly and open some extra magical 2-3 year window with Crosby still playing at a high level. I personally hate the thought this personally, but I do think this is the approach they will take. I think that’s why they didn’t move Rackell, didn’t ask Rust to waive his NTC, etc.

To dovetail in the football analogy that was used above, this team doesn’t have great wingers, great D, good goaltending, etc. They have a bunch of dudes that are at the end of the line. Some are already past the line, yet still playing 20 minutes a night.

They could have turned it around quickly if they could have parted ways with some familiar faces, but they opted not to. It was a dumb way to do business, but I accepted it as a fan, knowing this franchise was pushing back a true rebuild 3 extra years.

The problem is now, if what we believe Dubas is looking to do is true, run the risk of pushing the next truly competitive window out even further. Because, in order to really try to win another cup in the next 3 years, they would have to trade what little assets they have in terms of picks and prospects. Take Mushy for example….a potential superstar goalie, would almost certainly have to be moved. Certainly all your high picks would be gone.

I just think the risk of mortgaging yet again to try for a cup with a team that depends on so many guys 35+ years old, is totally unrealistic.

Rant over….i do think this is the route they will go though, so let’s enjoy the ride I suppose.

A couple of thoughts and comments here:

--We have 18 picks over the first 3 rounds of the next 3 drafts. We have plenty of draft capital right now.

--McGroarty, Koivunen, Pieniniemi, Brunicke, and Murashov should be our current untouchables. If the Penguins feel they need to move Broz, Pickering, Blomqvist, Howe, etc to help upgrade the team with an under 25 year old player, I don't have a problem with that.

--It's early, and I'm sure some of it is the first 3-5 game adrenaline jump, but RMG and Koivunen are greatly impressing, and showing traits of being able to handle top 6 roles moving forward. It's not just "oh, McGroarty has a goal and some assists, he's great." Watch him closely. He rarely goes above the dots in the offensive zone, and if he does, it is usually just to move and reposition himself. He is the complete opposite of a perimeter player. He's always in the dirty areas. I don't see issues with his skating, his IQ is very high, and he's very good defensively. At a minimum, I think he's Rust 2.0.

--I think we need to be reminded of how spoiled we are as Penguins fans....Lemieux-->Jagr--Sid/Geno. Dynasty for about 5 years in the early 90s, dynasty for most of the Sid and Geno era. The chances of this team rebuilding and immediately getting another player in the 66/68/87/71 realm are actually pretty slim, and so are the chances of building another dynasty. I think Penguins fans are going to have to get used to more having 5-8 year windows, and relying more on overall team concept than a generational talent.

--Expanding on the last point, I think as long as Sid is a 20 point, 60-70 point player, he may continue playing. Right now, I think he outlives the extension he just signed. Maybe he goes to a year by year status after that. Malkin I believe retires next season, as he's clearly declining. Letang, I think he gets traded before his contract ends. So, I think very soon, Sid will be the only one of the core left. And, with RMG and Koivunen exceeding my expectations or cautious optimism, this team might not be that far away from being annually competitive. This is why I keep hammering top 6 centers and top pairing d-men. This is why I started the poll about McTavish, because getting a young 2C would be a big add for this team. You could leave Sid with Rakell and Rust, and put McTavish with RMG and Koivunen. Get some good tweeners to play with Malkin next year on the 3rd line...so if any of the top 6 wingers are injured we have adequate replacements....not someone like Cody Glass or Connor Dewar. Remaking the defense will be a bit tougher.

I'd put Pickering on the list of untouchables.

[FLPensFan]

I'm not willingly wanting to move him, and I don't think there is anything wrong with him. I just don't think in the grand scheme of things he tops at a 4/5 defenseman.

If I presented you a trade opportunity that absolutely upgrades the team, and was a younger player....but I told you that you had to include one of McGroarty, Koivunen, Murashov, Brunicke, Pickering or Pieniniemi in the deal, who are you choosing? I'm betting 95% of the people on the board are choosing Pieniniemi or Pickering, and the former only because they haven't seen him at the pro level yet.

Pickering is a good prospect, but I don't think he'll be a great player. A good player, yes. Or, I could be totally wrong.

[Puck-Lurker]

Dubas has done some min-maxing, trying to add young players with some talent, in exchange for fair value down to barely anything. I'd be in favour of continuing down that path.

Lizotte was a good addition, hurt currently but back next season.

Hayes was worth the experiment, but apart from the return for taking his contract, he doesn't add much to a team. NHL calibre stick, JMFC speeds.

Glass was a swing.. and a miss. At least in terms of a middle six center. Came in with a small bag of goodies, went out the same way.

Novak has only had two games, which is annoying. He will either be a decent middle six center.. or someone to be shipped out for a pick.

Dewar has played center, but I get the distinct feeling Jarry will be playing C before Dewar ever will. Wasn't impressed with the addition, maybe Timmins was the sweetener at the time?

Ponomarev needs to see NHL ice next season, during the first year of his next contract. Came in the Rent-A-Jake Bundle.

Broz had his first AHL year. I'm not sure in what role he's deployed mostly, his points aren't impressive. Looking for him to improve.

Thing is, none of this had much if any *cost*. Meaning there are assets to direct towards other things, like.. defense. Ours sucks, badly.