Jake to Carolina

[Pens4Life]

We can agree on one thing tho.. old Jimmer can build a championship team, he just has what it takes.. sure he makes some mistake along thenway,but who can be perfect at his job. Rutherford was one of the best GM we ever had.. I'm still curious how hands free Dubas is here..

[Guinness]

Can't disagree too much with that, other than when you called him JImmer... I had to spend a second or two trying to figure out how Jeff Jimmerson had anything to do with building the roster! LOL

Rutherford made some astute moves in 15/16. There were some good ones in 16/17. And there were some real head scratchers before he bailed in 18. He was good. He was the second GM in franchise history to bring home 2 cups, and back-to-back, at that. At the end of the day he probably edges out Craig Patrick for building what he did in the cap era.

[DelPen]

We can agree on one thing tho.. old Jimmer can build a championship team, he just has what it takes.. sure he makes some mistake along thenway,but who can be perfect at his job. Rutherford was one of the best GM we ever had.. I'm still curious how hands free Dubas is here..

Was he though? His moves were hit and mostly miss for 18 months until he fired Johnson and managed to call up 5 or so guys along with Sullivan that caught fire for a couple years and then had Jake waiting to get a call up the next year. And then everything he did starting with how he managed Vegas expansion and getting Reaves kept spiraling out of control.

[pens_CT]

We can agree on one thing tho.. old Jimmer can build a championship team, he just has what it takes.. sure he makes some mistake along thenway,but who can be perfect at his job. Rutherford was one of the best GM we ever had.. I'm still curious how hands free Dubas is here..

Was he though? His moves were hit and mostly miss for 18 months until he fired Johnson and managed to call up 5 or so guys along with Sullivan that caught fire for a couple years and then had Jake waiting to get a call up the next year. And then everything he did starting with how he managed Vegas expansion and getting Reaves kept spiraling out of control.

His trades for: Hornqvist, Daley, Hagelin. Schultz, Bonino, and Kessel were pretty much spot on. You can't argue about the results. They got lucky with Guentzel, Rust, Sheary, and Murray. That's like half of the roster in turnover that happened pretty fast.

[Three Stars]

Yes, sure, a good team can lose in the first round, but a good team don't lose in the 1st round or miss the playoffs for 6 straight years. Participation medals is not counted as success.

Uh, sure they do. The Chicago Blackhawks did it. The Kings did it. The Detroit Red Wings won a couple more rounds, but I'm fairly sure that people would not be saying "that's all right then" if the Penguins' record looked like that. "Participation medals are not counted as success" is an arrogant fan belief.

That said, I don't think it's at all unreasonable for a fan base that roots for a team that has had at least 2 generational talent on the roster to expect to have won more than one playoff round since 2017. That's a lot of time for this roster, and more importantly a lot of squandered years for Sid and Geno, etc.

Sullivan should have been sent packing at least 3 years ago. When you're running a business, those who hesitate lose. It's well past time and if he starts the season next year as head coach, I'll be out on KD. And I don't hate Sully. He's just passed his expiration date. That's all.

I seriously doubt that winning one or two more rounds would suddenly have this place going "hey, that's enough success. Good job you guys". The destiny of all championship teams is to shed their depth, lose their mojo, and lose. Every single one of them have "squandered years" and mysteriously none of them have popped right back into being a championship team as their talent gets older. It is extreme arrogance to assume that the Penguins would somehow be different.

If you really think about it, the window closed for good in 2019 once Kessel was gone. He was a PITA and it was time for him to go. Still, as Edmonton might tell you now, having two generational talents is simply not enough.

[Guinness]

I seriously doubt that winning one or two more rounds would suddenly have this place going "hey, that's enough success. Good job you guys". The destiny of all championship teams is to shed their depth, lose their mojo, and lose. Every single one of them have "squandered years" and mysteriously none of them have popped right back into being a championship team as their talent gets older. It is extreme arrogance to assume that the Penguins would somehow be different.

If you really think about it, the window closed for good in 2019 once Kessel was gone. He was a PITA and it was time for him to go. Still, as Edmonton might tell you now, having two generational talents is simply not enough.

Winning a round or two between 2018 and 2024 would evince that there was some drive behind them. I'm not going to compare this team to what has been so far a very, very poorly managed Edmonton team, but we're definitely getting into that space. And I think we've all watched Edmonton for the last 15 years and have MARVELED at their lack of success. It's not just chucking a bunch of first rounders out onto the ice and saying, "no reason we shouldn't win". There has to be a scheme, a blueprint for how to put together a winning team. Sullivan hasn't done that in 7 years... 8, really. There is NO reason a team like Pittsburgh, with it's storied history and culture should have put up with this for as long as they have. This is a team that has won 5 Stanley Cups in 32 years. No other team can boast of a record like that since the '67 expansion. This is a team that let Scotty Bowman go. There's no reason they can't let Sullivan go and go find another coach who can maybe work with the GM and kickstart this team.

[Three Stars]

Winning a round or two between 2018 and 2024 would evince that there was some drive behind them. I'm not going to compare this team to what has been so far a very, very poorly managed Edmonton team, but we're definitely getting into that space. And I think we've all watched Edmonton for the last 15 years and have MARVELED at their lack of success. It's not just chucking a bunch of first rounders out onto the ice and saying, "no reason we shouldn't win". There has to be a scheme, a blueprint for how to put together a winning team. Sullivan hasn't done that in 7 years... 8, really. There is NO reason a team like Pittsburgh, with it's storied history and culture should have put up with this for as long as they have. This is a team that has won 5 Stanley Cups in 32 years. No other team can boast of a record like that since the '67 expansion. This is a team that let Scotty Bowman go. There's no reason they can't let Sullivan go and go find another coach who can maybe work with the GM and kickstart this team.

No, it would only evince that they won a round or two. It would probably also evince that their goaltending didn't fail them on two notable occasions, but that's another plate of spicy pork story. Does the 2021 division title count for anything? Not sure if I'm permitted to feel pride about that.

Just because you don't recognize the scheme doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. That's fan thinking. The fact that the scheme didn't work also doesn't mean that the scheme doesn't exist. That's sports.

What do the storied history and culture have to do with anything? Look at the teams I listed above. Did their storied history and culture in any way prevent them from falling apart? Were their fans outright stomping their feet demanding additional championships and then throwing a tantrum when they didn't get more than 3 Stanley Cups?

Championship teams fall apart. It's what they do.

I've never seen letting Scotty Bowman go be used as a point of pride and effective management. How many Cups did that version of the team win once they showed Scotty the door?

Boy howdy, has the narrative changed. Sullivan spent last season in open warfare with a GM that did his level best to cripple the team. I don't remember people taking that GM's side in all of this. Now it's Sullivan's fault that he couldn't work with the GM. #Hextallwasright?

[Guinness]

Winning a round or two between 2018 and 2024 would evince that there was some drive behind them. I'm not going to compare this team to what has been so far a very, very poorly managed Edmonton team, but we're definitely getting into that space. And I think we've all watched Edmonton for the last 15 years and have MARVELED at their lack of success. It's not just chucking a bunch of first rounders out onto the ice and saying, "no reason we shouldn't win". There has to be a scheme, a blueprint for how to put together a winning team. Sullivan hasn't done that in 7 years... 8, really. There is NO reason a team like Pittsburgh, with it's storied history and culture should have put up with this for as long as they have. This is a team that has won 5 Stanley Cups in 32 years. No other team can boast of a record like that since the '67 expansion. This is a team that let Scotty Bowman go. There's no reason they can't let Sullivan go and go find another coach who can maybe work with the GM and kickstart this team.

No, it would only evince that they won a round or two. It would probably also evince that their goaltending didn't fail them on two notable occasions, but that's another plate of spicy pork story. Does the 2021 division title count for anything? Not sure if I'm permitted to feel pride about that.

Just because you don't recognize the scheme doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. That's fan thinking. The fact that the scheme didn't work also doesn't mean that the scheme doesn't exist. That's sports.

What do the storied history and culture have to do with anything? Look at the teams I listed above. Did their storied history and culture in any way prevent them from falling apart? Were their fans outright stomping their feet demanding additional championships and then throwing a tantrum when they didn't get more than 3 Stanley Cups?

Championship teams fall apart. It's what they do.

I've never seen letting Scotty Bowman go be used as a point of pride and effective management. How many Cups did that version of the team win once they showed Scotty the door?

Boy howdy, has the narrative changed. Sullivan spent last season in open warfare with a GM that did his level best to cripple the team. I don't remember people taking that GM's side in all of this. Now it's Sullivan's fault that he couldn't work with the GM. #Hextallwasright?

Okay, fair points. I'm just not sure what you're driving at... should we just keep Sullivan around because... I don't know he won a division title in 2021? That feels less like fan thinking and more like Caps fans thinking... I would think that at this stage of evolution we'd have more pride than that. Regular seasons only matter in terms of playoff seeding. They could have won the President's Trophy every year since 2018 but not winning a playoff round between then and now is ridiculous.

The blame has to land somewhere, and over the course of 8-9 years, that can only land on the desk of the coach. And the only reason I mentioned Scotty Bowman was only to say that even the best coach in the history of the game can still get fired. No one has lifetime tenure.

[Three Stars]

Okay, fair points. I'm just not sure what you're driving at... should we just keep Sullivan around because... I don't know he won a division title in 2021? That feels less like fan thinking and more like Caps fans thinking... I would think that at this stage of evolution we'd have more pride than that. Regular seasons only matter in terms of playoff seeding. They could have won the President's Trophy every year since 2018 but not winning a playoff round between then and now is ridiculous.

The blame has to land somewhere, and over the course of 8-9 years, that can only land on the desk of the coach. And the only reason I mentioned Scotty Bowman was only to say that even the best coach in the history of the game can still get fired. No one has lifetime tenure.

Detroit fired Mike Babcock because they were fading badly. They replaced him with Jeff Blashill...and continued to badly fade for years. That coaching change didn't work.

Chicago fired Joel Quenneville because he's an utter creep they were fading badly. They replaced him with Jeremy Colliton...and continued to badly fade for years in spite of bringing in a notable offense defenseman. Huh, that sounds familiar. That coaching change didn't work.

LA fired Daryl Sutter because they were fading badly. They replaced him with John Stevens...and continued to badly fade for years. That coaching change didn't work.

Tampa Bay is fading, playing .569 hockey and battling for a Wild Card. It took a hot streak in January to even get this far. Why didn't they fire Jon Cooper if a coaching change would have prevented their fade? The blame has to land somewhere.

The Penguins are fading badly. Does history tell us that firing Mike Sullivan at this point will prevent them from collapsing? If it won't, then what do you expect to get out of a coaching change at this point? Pride? Satisfaction that you stuck it to that horrible Bostonian? A large banner that says "we fired the coach and I'm sure it will work this time!"?

[ahawk9]

I think what some of us are frustrated with is that they didn't make a change when it might have made a difference. Not that it would've, but sometimes that change does give a team a nice breath of fresh air, and I for one feel that this team needed that fresh air a year or two ago. I doubt it will make much of a difference now, but it's where you start. Just my opinion, so take with lump of salt.

[Guinness]

Okay, fair points. I'm just not sure what you're driving at... should we just keep Sullivan around because... I don't know he won a division title in 2021? That feels less like fan thinking and more like Caps fans thinking... I would think that at this stage of evolution we'd have more pride than that. Regular seasons only matter in terms of playoff seeding. They could have won the President's Trophy every year since 2018 but not winning a playoff round between then and now is ridiculous.

The blame has to land somewhere, and over the course of 8-9 years, that can only land on the desk of the coach. And the only reason I mentioned Scotty Bowman was only to say that even the best coach in the history of the game can still get fired. No one has lifetime tenure.

Detroit fired Mike Babcock because they were fading badly. They replaced him with Jeff Blashill...and continued to badly fade for years. That coaching change didn't work.

Chicago fired Joel Quenneville because he's an utter creep they were fading badly. They replaced him with Jeremy Colliton...and continued to badly fade for years in spite of bringing in a notable offense defenseman. Huh, that sounds familiar. That coaching change didn't work.

LA fired Daryl Sutter because they were fading badly. They replaced him with John Stevens...and continued to badly fade for years. That coaching change didn't work.

Tampa Bay is fading, playing .569 hockey and battling for a Wild Card. It took a hot streak in January to even get this far. Why didn't they fire Jon Cooper if a coaching change would have prevented their fade? The blame has to land somewhere.

The Penguins are fading badly. Does history tell us that firing Mike Sullivan at this point will prevent them from collapsing? If it won't, then what do you expect to get out of a coaching change at this point? Pride? Satisfaction that you stuck it to that horrible Bostonian? A large banner that says "we fired the coach and I'm sure it will work this time!"?

Okay so your position is that changing coaches doesn't change anything? So we should have just kept Mike Therrien when it wasn't working? We should have kept MIke Johnston when it was CLEAR he wasn't working?

How long of a leash do you want to give these guys? He's the second longest tenured coach in the league and he hasn't won a thing since 2018, and that wasn't really all that much.

This is not how successful franchises operate. This is Art Rooney 2 level of obstinance, and it's doing nothing for this team other than wasting one of the best seasons that a 36 year old superstar has ever posted. They changed the GM and POHO, as well they should have... as every joe shmoe walking down Liberty Avenue knew without having to think about it. I was fine with him keeping him behind the bench this year, but there is no excuse to go into next season with him and his staff still running things. You can't do that after 8 years of doing nothing if you're a serious organization that is 100% focused on winning championships.

I'm honestly not even sure why we're still discussing this. It seems crystal clear to most people that Sullivan has lost this team. It happens. It doesn't mean he's a bad coach. It just means it's time to move on. This team has been through a ton of coaches since Badger in 91... I'm not sure why you're so married to this guy that you want to argue that we should keep him after such a pathetic stretch of performance.

[VA Fan]

This maybe a radical theory but my two cents is the problem started with Mr. Spicy Pork and Broccoli. The 2022 team was up 3-1 on the Rangers. I know we lost but, I think that convinced the current ownership that this team was close. Is that not also the summer they negotiated with Mike Sullivan directly.

To me that is when they decided to try and ride the core for and try to compete around them. Not saying I am right but that is what I think happened.

[Guinness]

This maybe a radical theory but my two cents is the problem started with Mr. Spicy Pork and Broccoli. The 2022 team was up 3-1 on the Rangers. I know we lost but, I think that convinced the current ownership that this team was close. Is that not also the summer they negotiated with Mike Sullivan directly.

To me that is when they decided to try and ride the core for and try to compete around them. Not saying I am right but that is what I think happened.

If they thought they were close, they weren't watching as closely as we were. That team probably would have gotten past the Rags with NHL goaltending, but they weren't going much further. It doesn't take Herb Brooks to see that.

[VA Fan]

I think Mike Sullivan convinced them when he negotiated his extension that first offseason with the new ownership. Also it seems like that ship had not sailed for a lot of people, media and others in the hockey world until Dubas traded Jake.

Even then there are some that said he should have waved the magic wand and fixed it all. Just saying.

[FLPensFan]

These are a couple areas of concern specific to the coaching staff:

1) The PP. There is no reason a PP with the amount of talent this team has should struggle. The PP alone has cost them a good 10 points in the standing. A league average PP would make a big difference on this season. It's the players job to execute, but, we witness a franchise worst PP this season. A franchise worst PP with Malkin, Crosby, Karlsson, Letang, Guentzel, Rakell, Rust. This didn't come with guys like Ramzi Abid, Rico Fata, Richard Litner....or guys like Dan Frawley, John Chabot, Moe Mantha, and Randy Cunneyworth...it came with THIS CORE. That's unacceptable, and there needs to be a level of accountability from the coaches.

2) The "Just Play" mantra. Quite simply, this team needs some more physical, skilled talent. We won Cups with guys like Kunitz and Hornqvist being major contributors. We had an Ian Cole/Orpik type on defense. This team gets easily pushed around, because teams know they can do it without repercussion. Sullivan's Just Play mantra came to stop retaliation penalties, and make teams pay by being overly aggressive and making them pay on the PP. If the PP doesn't work, this mantra doesn't work. Instead you get guys like Crosby and Letang and Malkin having to stick up for themselves most nights. You also end up with a ton of perimeter shots when you have guys that can't or won't go to the net, like a Hornqvist or Kunitz did. This team needs to regain a level of toughness. That doesn't mean bring Ryan Reaves back or go get Matt Rempe. It's needs guys that will go to the dirty areas, and it needs guys to not let our guys get pushed around.

3) The treatment of youth. We can argue until we are blue in the face if a guy like Puustinen, Puljujarvi, or DOC deserve to play here, there, or at all in the NHL. But, it is hard to argue with the usage of some of these players. Puustinen is the perfect example.
--->Puustinen first 7 games, 4 points, average TOI over 14 minutes
--->Puustinen next 2 games, 2 points, average TOI over 10 minutes (4 minute drop)
--->Puustinen next 2 games, 1 point, average TOI over 7 minutes (50% drop from first 7 games)
--->Puustinen next 9 games, 0 points, average TOI over 8 minutes (about 40% drop from first 7 games)
--->Puustinen next 8 games, 6 points, average TOI over 14 minutes (back to normal levels)

There was no visible reason why Sullivan dropped Puustinen's ice time. He was doing very well during those initial 7 games, but Sullivan started dropping his ice time, to the point where his ice time was halved. As soon as his TOI returned to normal levels, that initial 14 minutes plus levels, his production return. Somewhere, Puustinen probably made a mistake, took a bad penalty, and Sullivan reamed him over the coals for it. Meanwhile, Malkin and Carter find 10 new ways a game to make bad plays, and don't get yanked from the lineup or see a reduction in their ice time. It happened to Puljujarvi as well. I'm sure there are more examples that aren't coming to mind right now.

These are the big 3 area that concern me, that aren't 100% "the players we have suck." These are the types of things I am looking at why the coaching staff does it, because it makes little sense and needs to change. This is where I feel a coaching change may be needed.

[Coffey Break]

Okay, fair points. I'm just not sure what you're driving at... should we just keep Sullivan around because... I don't know he won a division title in 2021? That feels less like fan thinking and more like Caps fans thinking... I would think that at this stage of evolution we'd have more pride than that. Regular seasons only matter in terms of playoff seeding. They could have won the President's Trophy every year since 2018 but not winning a playoff round between then and now is ridiculous.

The blame has to land somewhere, and over the course of 8-9 years, that can only land on the desk of the coach. And the only reason I mentioned Scotty Bowman was only to say that even the best coach in the history of the game can still get fired. No one has lifetime tenure.

Detroit fired Mike Babcock because they were fading badly. They replaced him with Jeff Blashill...and continued to badly fade for years. That coaching change didn't work.

Chicago fired Joel Quenneville because he's an utter creep they were fading badly. They replaced him with Jeremy Colliton...and continued to badly fade for years in spite of bringing in a notable offense defenseman. Huh, that sounds familiar. That coaching change didn't work.

LA fired Daryl Sutter because they were fading badly. They replaced him with John Stevens...and continued to badly fade for years. That coaching change didn't work.

Tampa Bay is fading, playing .569 hockey and battling for a Wild Card. It took a hot streak in January to even get this far. Why didn't they fire Jon Cooper if a coaching change would have prevented their fade? The blame has to land somewhere.

The Penguins are fading badly. Does history tell us that firing Mike Sullivan at this point will prevent them from collapsing? If it won't, then what do you expect to get out of a coaching change at this point? Pride? Satisfaction that you stuck it to that horrible Bostonian? A large banner that says "we fired the coach and I'm sure it will work this time!"?

You're right - let's just keep doing the same things we've been doing for the last 6 years!

[maopens]

These are a couple areas of concern specific to the coaching staff:

1) The PP. There is no reason a PP with the amount of talent this team has should struggle. The PP alone has cost them a good 10 points in the standing. A league average PP would make a big difference on this season. It's the players job to execute, but, we witness a franchise worst PP this season. A franchise worst PP with Malkin, Crosby, Karlsson, Letang, Guentzel, Rakell, Rust. This didn't come with guys like Ramzi Abid, Rico Fata, Richard Litner....or guys like Dan Frawley, John Chabot, Moe Mantha, and Randy Cunneyworth...it came with THIS CORE. That's unacceptable, and there needs to be a level of accountability from the coaches.

2) The "Just Play" mantra. Quite simply, this team needs some more physical, skilled talent. We won Cups with guys like Kunitz and Hornqvist being major contributors. We had an Ian Cole/Orpik type on defense. This team gets easily pushed around, because teams know they can do it without repercussion. Sullivan's Just Play mantra came to stop retaliation penalties, and make teams pay by being overly aggressive and making them pay on the PP. If the PP doesn't work, this mantra doesn't work. Instead you get guys like Crosby and Letang and Malkin having to stick up for themselves most nights. You also end up with a ton of perimeter shots when you have guys that can't or won't go to the net, like a Hornqvist or Kunitz did. This team needs to regain a level of toughness. That doesn't mean bring Ryan Reaves back or go get Matt Rempe. It's needs guys that will go to the dirty areas, and it needs guys to not let our guys get pushed around.

3) The treatment of youth. We can argue until we are blue in the face if a guy like Puustinen, Puljujarvi, or DOC deserve to play here, there, or at all in the NHL. But, it is hard to argue with the usage of some of these players. Puustinen is the perfect example.
--->Puustinen first 7 games, 4 points, average TOI over 14 minutes
--->Puustinen next 2 games, 2 points, average TOI over 10 minutes (4 minute drop)
--->Puustinen next 2 games, 1 point, average TOI over 7 minutes (50% drop from first 7 games)
--->Puustinen next 9 games, 0 points, average TOI over 8 minutes (about 40% drop from first 7 games)
--->Puustinen next 8 games, 6 points, average TOI over 14 minutes (back to normal levels)

There was no visible reason why Sullivan dropped Puustinen's ice time. He was doing very well during those initial 7 games, but Sullivan started dropping his ice time, to the point where his ice time was halved. As soon as his TOI returned to normal levels, that initial 14 minutes plus levels, his production return. Somewhere, Puustinen probably made a mistake, took a bad penalty, and Sullivan reamed him over the coals for it. Meanwhile, Malkin and Carter find 10 new ways a game to make bad plays, and don't get yanked from the lineup or see a reduction in their ice time. It happened to Puljujarvi as well. I'm sure there are more examples that aren't coming to mind right now.

These are the big 3 area that concern me, that aren't 100% "the players we have suck." These are the types of things I am looking at why the coaching staff does it, because it makes little sense and needs to change. This is where I feel a coaching change may be needed.

Historically, Sullivan has always treated the young guys as if they do not exist. When called up, they only played if injuries required them to play and their ice time was minimal, at best. He has always over-utilized older guys during the regular season which then likely took a toll on how much they had left in the tank for the playoffs. It's just the Sullivan way. He hasn't changed that in any meaningful way since 2017.

How can it be a surprise to anyone that this oganization cannot develop any youth from within? Is it a surprise that we have youth decide to give up on the Pens and their NHL dreams and head back to Europe where they get to play? Hallander (as one example) looked like he could have been a bottom 6 guy to me based on his AHL play. I think he was given 2 games. Instead of a cheap, 23 year old getting 10-20 games as a shot, this team went out and signed the Over 30 Gang of Nieto, Acciari, and Eller, Hinostroza for those roles - at higher salaries.

So, my question is: With Dubas announcing the team's direction of needing to get younger, and a coach who refuses to play youth - who wins that battle?

[Pruezy11881]

Only put younger guys on the roster available. Coach will have no option. Billy Beane him...

[FLPensFan]

Only put younger guys on the roster available. Coach will have no option. Billy Beane him...

The problem is, I will readily admit that having DOC, Puustinen, Bemstrom, Puljujarvi, Poulin all on the ice together probably isn't the best idea, either. Just use what you have. I don't mind Bemstrom, but, I didn't see the need to bring in a guy that has a very similar makeup to Puustinen, and potentially have to give up a 3rd round pick for him.

Didn't understand the Matthew Phillips pickup, either.

[ahawk9]

Hallander intrigued me as well. I'm not saying he would've been the new No. 2 center, but we'll never know if he could've developed into a solid bottom-6 center on the cheap because he got, what, one game here?

[lemieuxReturns]

If there is one bright spot for me as a Geno fan, it is that once Sid was gifted these talented wingers that Geno has had to work with, Sid is proving the point many of us have been saying all season. These guys are bums!

[Three Stars]

Okay so your position is that changing coaches doesn't change anything? So we should have just kept Mike Therrien when it wasn't working? We should have kept MIke Johnston when it was CLEAR he wasn't working?

How long of a leash do you want to give these guys? He's the second longest tenured coach in the league and he hasn't won a thing since 2018, and that wasn't really all that much.

This is not how successful franchises operate. This is Art Rooney 2 level of obstinance, and it's doing nothing for this team other than wasting one of the best seasons that a 36 year old superstar has ever posted. They changed the GM and POHO, as well they should have... as every joe shmoe walking down Liberty Avenue knew without having to think about it. I was fine with him keeping him behind the bench this year, but there is no excuse to go into next season with him and his staff still running things. You can't do that after 8 years of doing nothing if you're a serious organization that is 100% focused on winning championships.

I'm honestly not even sure why we're still discussing this. It seems crystal clear to most people that Sullivan has lost this team. It happens. It doesn't mean he's a bad coach. It just means it's time to move on. This team has been through a ton of coaches since Badger in 91... I'm not sure why you're so married to this guy that you want to argue that we should keep him after such a pathetic stretch of performance.

No, because why would anyone equate the circumstances of the 2008 and 2015 Penguins with those of the current team and assume that a coaching change would have the same effect? We've gotten so used to the team pouting its way into a coaching change that it's become expected and normalized behavior in Pittsburgh. It seems that this time around they're trying something different because unlike 2008 and 2015, there's no useful player upside to the change.

Your premise is flawed. A team that just traded Jake Guentzel for prospects is not 100% focused on winning championships. Why do you think the team is having its latest mental meltdown? They know it too. Besides, how much actual upside do you think this current team has? Your 36 year old superstar is visibly tiring for the second year in a row, mostly because there's nobody else to step up. The last time they tried the "aging superstar will drag us into the playoffs" thing it was 2001-02. Malkin is mentally and physically checking out and either can't or won't adapt. Letang is making stupid mistakes. Karlsson's actually not that bad analytically but he also hasn't been the difference maker he was expected to be. Nobody knows how to score goals anymore. The bottom 6 forwards might as well not exist. This is what a new coach will have to work with.

These are late 30s players with their heads up their bums not listening to the coaches. The power play alone is a big time red flag. Either the organization literally doesn't care that there's open revolt on power play tactics, or they've decided that the players aren't going to get their way this time via a coaching change.

Any team where the veteran presence just does its own thing is no more likely to listen to a new coach as compared to the old one. What are they going to do? Bring in even more veterans to "show the young(ish) guys how it's done"? Start scratching them one by one? Plus, all the veterans with craniorectal juxtaposition have no movement clauses. It's a consequence free environment. I think Dubas knows this, hence the Guentzel trade as a shot across their bows.

The only circumstance in which a coaching change would help at this point is if they're shifting fully into flush the roster/play the kids mode. Sullivan's actually good at that if you recall. Remember beating Toronto 7-0 with Carter and Rodriguez as your top two centers? Remember all of the times this team stepped it up when its best players were out?

[VA Fan]

I agree there needs to be a change in the coaching philosophy if we are going to get younger. I think the issue the organization had to decide how much we are going to accept the learning curve of young players. I think my biggest issue has been as others have said that acceptance is zero if we can throw a veteran in the lineup.

That may work if you are one of the top contending teams for the cup. It does not seem to be an acceptable strategy when you are not.

As others have asked is the organization still internally saying this team is capable of winning the cup with tweaking the roster. I think the answer is no unfortunately not with this core. Which leads to, if the core wants another shot at a cup we may need to ask them where there top destinations are to do just that and blow it up.

[lemieuxReturns]

If you want a coach that accepts the young kids you almost have to look at history and how that works. It usually seems to work by promoting the AHL coach who is familiar with those kids. Maybe let Sully keep coaching and let the AHL coach get introduced to the new prospects and then promote him mid season next year.

[FLPensFan]

Hallander intrigued me as well. I'm not saying he would've been the new No. 2 center, but we'll never know if he could've developed into a solid bottom-6 center on the cheap because he got, what, one game here?

I think a big part of the frustration from the prospects, and I'm surprised we don't see/hear more of it, is the lack of chances that they get at the NHL level. Look, in all fairness, we are scraping the sides and bottom of the barrel with our system, but, there are guys that deserve looks or longer looks.

Hallander and Bjorkqvist were both supposed expected to be major contributors at the NHL level (bottom 6) the following season, but they both left. I remember Bjorkqvist being called out late in the season as being ready to play the following year...but he left that summer. Hallander, something similar was said at one point, but he left as well, and had reportedly been working on his release and going back to Europe for a few months before it actually happened. Now, neither of these two showed me much when they were here, but on the flip side, they also didn't get a whole lot of a chance.

There are some guys that are never going to make it out of the AHL and never get a look (some don't even make it to the AHL), but, there are others that seem to play well, only to watch the Grudens and Hinostrozas and Caggiulas get recalled over them. Sam Poulin has had a very strong season in WBS when not injured. If you are Sam Poulin, do you really want to hear that you are playing well, but we can't recall you because we bungled the cap. Try again next year? A few years ago, Poulin was being talked up endlessly by Rutherford, about earning a job in camp. He didn't...then he left due to mental health issues.

It's puzzling to say the least.