How do we turn ship around?

[Admin]

https://www.hockeydb.com/stte/pittsburg ... -7475.html has player ages per season.

[Pens4Life]

3 simple steps :
1 - New younger players
2 - New coach
3 - Let Dubas work on his own without tied hands

[FLPensFan]

I use hockey-reference.com because I can export to a spreadsheet and manipulate. Going by hockey-reference

23-24 team has average age of 31.3; league average is 28.5

16-17 team has average age of 28.7; league average is 28.0
15-16 team has average age of 29.0; league average is 28.0
08-09 team has average age of 26.6; league average is 27.9
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
91-92 team has average age of 27.0
90-91 team has average age of 26.3

Hockey reference didn't calculate average age for those early 90s seasons (98-99 was first season). I got the average age for the 2 90s cup teams by taking the roster hockey reference provided, and averaging the age. This drives the number a bit lower, because it uses every player that played for them this season, for instance, Zalapski in 90-91 even though he was traded.

[DelPen]

I’m more interested in the median age and the total number of players over 30 than averages. This team has too many players relied upon who are over 30 and very few players under 25 who are key contributors. That seems like it should be the reverse to have success.

[Three Stars]

Considering there’s hardly a guarantee that the current Penguins core can sustain competitiveness, I don’t see the point of adding a Shane Pinto. He’s not going to push them over the top Kessel-style.

I also don’t see why Ottawa would go for prospects that are ostensibly poorly ranked and no guarantee to turn into anything. They’re a rebuilding franchise too, albeit further along in that process. Their core is also so much younger and arguably more likely to sustain success over a longer term.

Having one’s organizational prospect ranking be high correlates generally with being bad for a time and drafting players who are generally higher ranked in the esteem of those who do the ranking. Trying to do an end run around the “being bad” part is the hard part.

[Badger Bob]

Did they fire Sully yet?

[pronovost19]

Not on board with resigning Jake. Need 2 4-5 million guys instead. No matter what he does if he is resigned, it will pale in comparison to what he did in the past. Let’s just not go there. It never works.

[Badger Bob]

I'm scratching my head trying to remember the last time a team traded a rental away at the deadline and then resigned them in the off season.

[KBone]

I'm scratching my head trying to remember the last time a team traded a rental away at the deadline and then resigned them in the off season.

Tkachuk went back to the Blues after getting traded to the Thrashers. That was... quite some time ago.

[Three Stars]

Racchi's Rug returned to the Penguins after being traded to the Hurricanes in 2006.

[Cow_Master66]

Here's my plan on turning the team around. I'm going to save coaching for last

First let's take a look at what is returning next year:

Rakell-Crosby-Rust
Smith-Malkin-X
X-X-X
Nieto-Eller-Acciari

MP-Letang
Graves-EK65
X-X

Jarry
X

From this point, we need to decide who to re-sign, who to let go, and who to maybe trade:
--UFAs to let walk: Carter, Harkins
--UFAs to re-sign: Nedeljkovic
--RFAs to re-sign: POJ, Gruden, Puustinen, Bemstrom, St. Ivany, Rathbone, Samorukov, Cajkovic, Hamaliuk
--Prospects who should be added to WBS/Wheeling: Pickering, Yoder, Tankov?, Koivunen, Ponomaryov
--On the fence: Andonovski (RFA), Hinostroza (UFA), Zohorna (UFA), Shea (UFA), Fedun (UFA), Ouelett (UFA)

Of the on the fence guys, I don't think all of them should be brought back, but we are going to need some experienced depth in WBS. So it really comes down to who comes in as prospects, who else is an upgrade as veteran depth on the market. Once that is figured out, we can determine who of the on the fence guys we bring back.

Key decisions for the big club:

1) They need to allow competition for some roster spots. We cannot go into the season gifting Nieto or others a guaranteed starting spot. We are going to need to see DOC, Poulin, Puustinen, Puljujarvi, and Bemstrom fighting for some spots. I don't think it is wise to have all 5 of those players in the lineup every night. I'd like to see Nieto waived, traded, or sent to WBS. He was an utter disappointment what little time he was here. STOP HANGING ONTO GUYS JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK THEY PK WELL.

2) Revisit trading one of Rust, Smith, or Rakell. The latter two seem more probably. Rust would be better suited for next summer, after his NMC clause expires. Up front, the team is in need of two general asset types: Skilled youth, and skilled physical players (or at least some with size). I think this is where Dubas needs to try and move a something like Smith and Koivunen to Arizona for a player like Jack McBain and a pick. McBain hits, has size, PKs, is good defensively, and can play C/W in the bottom 6. Something like Pouiln-McBain-Puustinen/Puljujarvi would be a solid 3rd line next year.

3) Reworking the defense. They are going to have to give Graves a chance. Hopefully, this is part of first year system issues that has affected some good players like Gonchar and Martin in the past. They don't need a huge overhaul, though. For as much we gripe and complain about the boneheaded mistakes, this team was still 2nd overall in lowest Goal Against on February 1st and 6th overall in GA/game at 2.70. We have dropped to 10th overall in lowest GA and GA/game. From Feb 1 to today, 17 games, we have given up the 2nd most goals in the league, 58 GA in 17 games, 3.41 GA per game, 23rd worst. It was working. We need to rework the bottom pair. The team needs to determine if POJ has plateaued or if he can still improve. They should give a guy like Jack St. Ivany a look on 3rd pair RD.

4) Coaching staff. Dubas should require Sullivan to work with a PP specialist not Reirden, or outright fire Reirden. The PP has not significantly improved. From Feb 1st to today, it is clicking at 18.6%, which is 23rd over that time period. It's moved a little from the rock bottom next to last it was, but it needs to be much, much better. Dubas needs to decide if there is a coaching problem or a player problem. I think it is a bit of both, and I think Dubas believes Sullivan is a good coach, even if he isn't "a good coach for this current team." I think that is his hesitancy right now. He doesn't want to fire Sullivan and see him go elsewhere, when in another 3 years or so, the core may be gone and he has faith that Sullivan will be better. I'm 50/50 as to whether Dubas pulls the cord on Sullivan. I'd probably bet that he doesn't, but he has a short leash to start the season.

IMO resigning Ned would be a mistake, unless they plan on dealing Jarry. That's assuming he's going to get a decent jump in pay, which I suspect someone will be willing to do. This team isn't in position to pay, let's say, 2.5M for a backup goalie....I'd love to see them pay 2.5M for him to start and deal Jarry though.

[KG]

Not on board with resigning Jake. Need 2 4-5 million guys instead. No matter what he does if he is resigned, it will pale in comparison to what he did in the past. Let’s just not go there. It never works.

I prefer that approach as well. We need more depth scoring. KD should look to move Smith and Rakell this off-season as well. We need a re-tool of the top 6. Well actually the top 12 but.. I hope Poulin and Ponomarev are given real opportunities to make the team next season.

[100565]

I would not resign Jake either. I would use any of our prospects and draft picks to trade for younger players who have some nhl experience. Then hope the team can make another run with the core. I would try to avoid contacts of 5+ years when trading.

After the core retires, be really bad. Get a few years of 1st, 2nd overall picks. During those years, use cap space as an asset to accelerate rebuild (take dead/bad contracts.). It would take 3-4 years depending on top draft picks.

[pekkasteele]

I think we trade everything we can for futures. I don't want Buntings or Pintos or whatever now. Let Sully, Sid, Malkin and all the oldies stay for 3 years while we build up capital for the future and then we can aim high again.

As evidenced earlier in the tread, being half good doesn't create a champion, we HAVE to suck for a few years. I'm OK with that, we have had sooooo many good years a Pens fans.

If we trade for good players now, we wont suck enough to be able to get high talent. In other words.

Lets be nostalgic, keep Sully (To make sure that we still lose and only plays the Carters of the world) and the core until they retire, surround them with older rejects and trade all we can for drafted prospects (Like the Jake trade) or draft dicks ans stockpile. Then, on 26-27-28 maybe, get a new coach and start signing young promising players and win again!

[Cow_Master66]

I would not resign Jake either. I would use any of our prospects and draft picks to trade for younger players who have some nhl experience. Then hope the team can make another run with the core. I would try to avoid contacts of 5+ years when trading.

After the core retires, be really bad. Get a few years of 1st, 2nd overall picks. During those years, use cap space as an asset to accelerate rebuild (take dead/bad contracts.). It would take 3-4 years depending on top draft picks.

They don't have to wait (any longer) for the core to retire to be bad. We aren't gonna be able to trade prospects for younger (solid) nhl players. We could trade some picks perhaps, but that's kicking the can down the road. The time has come to ride it out, collect futures, and develop them properly. Anyone looking for some sort of bounce back next season is setting themselves up for failure. If the organization is taking that approach, we are royally ****ed for at least 1/2 a decade (7 years if you add in the last 2 seasons).

[KG]

Next year isn't the year to tank since San Jose has our first round pick, most likely...Unless we finish 11th or better in the standings this season.

I think a lot of KD's plan for next season will depend on where the Pens finish in the standings this off-season. It's not a great long-term plan, but I don't think we are there yet to tear it down. We cant give the Sharks a lottery pick in next seasons deep draft.

[stonewizard51]

Did they fire Sully yet?

IMHO, Dubas will be fired before Sully goes, unless Sully resigns, so neither is gonna happen.

[Pens4Life]

With inserted guys returning, I would put Smith, Nieto, Graves, EK65, Jarry on trading block and see what can be done..
If everyone stays, just insert youth to 3rd line and bottom D pair

Bunting - Crosby - Rust
Smith - Malkin- Rakell
X-X-X ---> (Poulin - DOC - Puustinen or even Koivunen?)
Nieto - Eller - Acciari

MP-Letang
Graves-EK65
X-X (POJ - Ludvig)
X - X (Pickering - St'Ivany)

Jarry
X (Blomquist)

[lemieuxReturns]

How do we turn this ship around?

Well, if the ship is on fire, and all the crew are super old and hardly able to fight... then turning the ship around to go back to battle at this point is suicidal.
Just let the ship sail off, put out the fire, go get a new crew. Then at that point, go back and look for the battle.

My point is. We are not one or two crew mates away from being a competitive ship again. We need a rebuild and that is going to take time.
Dubas has to continue what he just started with Jake. He needs to trade away older players while they still hold value:
- EK
- Rust
- Rakell
- Smith
- Eller

We need to just try and get as many picks and prospects as possible to start building up the system again.

At the end of the summer, you go bargain shopping in the UFA bin. Grabbing up some older UFA's that teams have not signed. You sign them for one year deals at super cheap prices. Then at the deadline, you unload them for more picks. 3rd and 4th round picks to help continue to stock the system. Rinse and repeat for approx 3 years. Chicago is doing it. They have the best prospect in nearly the past 10 years and are looking at drafting 1st overall again this summer. It's not rocket science. The sooner you realize that you need to suck to be good again, the better.

[Skatingpen]

Finish middle, draft middle, stay middle……just look at the Steelers

[lemieuxReturns]

Just to further the point, the Sharks were in the cup finals with the Pens in 2016. They are in full rebuild. They have :
2 1st round picks this summer (If the Pens allow it)
2 2nd round picks this summer
and they have :
2 1st round picks next summer

They are at least 1 or 2 years ahead of us in their rebuild, and they are still far from competing.

[FLPensFan]

How do we turn this ship around?

Well, if the ship is on fire, and all the crew are super old and hardly able to fight... then turning the ship around to go back to battle at this point is suicidal.
Just let the ship sail off, put out the fire, go get a new crew. Then at that point, go back and look for the battle.

My point is. We are not one or two crew mates away from being a competitive ship again. We need a rebuild and that is going to take time.
Dubas has to continue what he just started with Jake. He needs to trade away older players while they still hold value:
- EK
- Rust
- Rakell
- Smith
- Eller

We need to just try and get as many picks and prospects as possible to start building up the system again.

At the end of the summer, you go bargain shopping in the UFA bin. Grabbing up some older UFA's that teams have not signed. You sign them for one year deals at super cheap prices. Then at the deadline, you unload them for more picks. 3rd and 4th round picks to help continue to stock the system. Rinse and repeat for approx 3 years. Chicago is doing it. They have the best prospect in nearly the past 10 years and are looking at drafting 1st overall again this summer. It's not rocket science. The sooner you realize that you need to suck to be good again, the better.

That last sentence probably sums up this organization on 3 or 4 different levels. They are constantly stuck trying to do both A and B, when only one is possible:

1. A) We want to make the playoffs with a really old team but B) we can't sell off picks or prospects, because we need to look to the future.
2. B) We aren't satisfied with our lack of success this year or last but B) we won't fire our coach because we still think he is the greatest ever!
3. A) We need to get younger but B) we don't want to do a full rebuild because that isn't right because the core is still here.

Dubas needs to put his foot down, and tell whomever needs to hear it that they hired him for 7 years, let him do his job. He needs to:
1) Sell off players for picks and prospects
2) Replace the coaching staff
3) Stop placating the core and do what is best for the overall team and organization

[Three Stars]

You know what’s funny? By all reports, Hextall was told to do that job by Lemieux Group…and then the new bosses came in and reversed course.

[FLPensFan]

You know what’s funny? By all reports, Hextall was told to do that job by Lemieux Group…and then the new bosses came in and reversed course.

Well since Mario's been hanging around the team a little more over the last month, maybe he can tell FSG to go back to his plan.

[VA Fan]

I am curious. If we try and trade for some one like Pinto or some similar players. What do should we reasonably expect from the team as far as results.

As far as the team tear down memo from Mario and company one wonders why they would actually give that directive to Hextall while also trying to maximize return selling the team?