Penguins souring on Plan B

Guins · Post by **Guins** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:23 am

dboss wrote:
Guins wrote:When you get a clue how the business world works give me a call,until then you are in a race with a Maserati & you are a YUGO
What's your number so when I figure out the 'business world according to Guins' I can give you a call?

By the time that happens the world will have ENDED!!!!!!!!!!!

ShaPe · Post by **ShaPe** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:27 am

I dont know much about how things work there in U.S and burgh, but I know politicians. If he says its the best deal, its probably right now and in the long run it will cost the pens more if they have to pay rent and share the revenues.
Pay rent and share revenues for 30 years or pay more money up front and get all the revenues and no rent.
I think thats the reason Mario and Burke didn't agree to it. Or am I missing something?

Stoosh · Post by **Stoosh** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:30 am

Newarenanow or anyone else, Belko's article states Quote:
In addition to sharing parking revenues and development rights, the state, city and county also want the team to pay rent at the new arena, in excess of the roughly $2 million a year it pays SMG at Mellon Arena, sources said.

Does anyone know if the 2 million referred to here is separate from the contruction payment last reported to be around 2.9 mill?

Thanks

spi,

My guess is that the SEA will operate the arena. The Pens will control all the revenues for hockey and non-hockey events. The Pens will pay $2 million in rent to the SEA as SEA would be considered the operators of the arena. This would be unrelated to the Pens' $2.9-million-a-year contribution to the arena construction because that is in fact going to the financing plan of the arena, not the maintenance of it (there are rumors, however, that the Pens' financing contribution has dropped to $1.5 million a year).

That's the best I can do with it. I could be wrong. I'm not sure where Belko is getting this info from because none of it - the rent payments to the SEA, the $10 million payment to the Isle of Capri, etc - meshes with what the Trib reported. (I don't know what's up with that payment to IoC either...sounds like something between the team and the Isle of Capri, and I don't know why Rendell brought it up unless the Pens were seeking some sort of relief from it as part of the arena deal.)

The Pens have steadfastly refused comment on this negotiation and Belko seemed to have an awful lot of inside info on this that the Trib didn't have. I hate to say it, but Conte and Rossi with the Trib have been a solid day or two ahead of the PG on this issue since it began, so I'm not sure how much stock to put into Belko's report.

Guins · Post by **Guins** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:31 am

newarenanow wrote:
You ask why I would doubt the Pens word? Their "priority" from day one was to keep the team in Pgh, but yet they attempted to sell the team to not one, but two individuals who's priority it was to move it. The Pens word, not mine.

As for Barden, part of his casino plan was to dump $350M into the Hill to redevelop it. They are not going to dump that kind of money w/o making money in return. He is trying to make a partnership with the Pens on this development. One of the revenue sources of a development is the parking that goes with it.

I'm sorry, but Barden is investing a lot of money, and in return he should make money. That is insane if you think he is doing it for free. The IOC plan I'm sure would have them making money on parking around the casino and Nationwide making money on parking for the development around the IOC plan. They were being charitable either.

There is just this CULT thing about ML to some posters that no matter what he says or does he is still the second coming of JESUS CHRIST!! I particularly don't understand that at all.He was the greatest player I ever saw play hockey,His Philanthropy is beyond compare,but his ownership has been to say the least spectacularly unimpressive

ryan21081 · Post by **ryan21081** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:53 am

Think about it. Lemieux has no more than a HS diploma. And even that he got from a tutor because he was too busy to go to an actual school. Hes not a lawyer and is pretty much out of his league when dealing with poloticians. If he moves the team i hold him fully responsible.

spi · Post by **spi** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:19 pm

Stoosh wrote:
Newarenanow or anyone else, Belko's article states Quote:
In addition to sharing parking revenues and development rights, the state, city and county also want the team to pay rent at the new arena, in excess of the roughly $2 million a year it pays SMG at Mellon Arena, sources said.

Does anyone know if the 2 million referred to here is separate from the contruction payment last reported to be around 2.9 mill?

Thanks
spi,

My guess is that the SEA will operate the arena. The Pens will control all the revenues for hockey and non-hockey events. The Pens will pay $2 million in rent to the SEA as SEA would be considered the operators of the arena. This would be unrelated to the Pens' $2.9-million-a-year contribution to the arena construction because that is in fact going to the financing plan of the arena, not the maintenance of it (there are rumors, however, that the Pens' financing contribution has dropped to $1.5 million a year).

That's the best I can do with it. I could be wrong. I'm not sure where Belko is getting this info from because none of it - the rent payments to the SEA, the $10 million payment to the Isle of Capri, etc - meshes with what the Trib reported. (I don't know what's up with that payment to IoC either...sounds like something between the team and the Isle of Capri, and I don't know why Rendell brought it up unless the Pens were seeking some sort of relief from it as part of the arena deal.)

The Pens have steadfastly refused comment on this negotiation and Belko seemed to have an awful lot of inside info on this that the Trib didn't have. I hate to say it, but Conte and Rossi with the Trib have been a solid day or two ahead of the PG on this issue since it began, so I'm not sure how much stock to put into Belko's report.

I emailed Belko to have him elaborate. I will let you guys know what I hear.

Keep the faith people, this is a negotiation with several 100mill at stake. In the end they stay.

For those who are ready to crucify lemieux if they leave, you better be ready to treat him like the second coming when they stay.

Guins · Post by **Guins** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:39 pm

UHH most people already treat him like the second coming

spi · Post by **spi** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:43 pm

Guins wrote:UHH most people already treat him like the second coming

As I said in my post

For those who are ready to crucify lemieux if they leave, you better be ready to treat him like the second coming when they stay.

edog · Post by **edog** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:42 pm

ShaPe wrote:I dont know much about how things work there in U.S and burgh, but I know politicians. If he says its the best deal, its probably right now and in the long run it will cost the pens more if they have to pay rent and share the revenues.
Pay rent and share revenues for 30 years or pay more money up front and get all the revenues and no rent.
I think thats the reason Mario and Burke didn't agree to it. Or am I missing something?

Plan B is fine as is, they (all the parties involved) are throwing a hissy fit over development around the arena now. My take is this, there is too much money here versus KC. A LOT MORE. Since you are overseas, allow me to paint this picture for you. KC's neighborhood development is already either being built or in place. In short, the Pens can't get in on that gravy train there. Here in Pittsburgh, you are talking about some seedy parts of town around the arena (known as the Hill District). Development is coming, so they have an opportunity to get in on the ground floor & make a bootload of cash over many years....

By the way, politicians world wide all share one thing....they are snakes in the grass.....

NJ5934 · Post by **NJ5934** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:28 pm

Guins wrote:
NJ5934 wrote:It is just me, or is anyone else seeing "Mr. Bardenas an emerging rat in this whole matter.

Initially, he was willing to promise whatever money was asked, in order to stay in the hunt for the slots license. Now...he feels that promise was actually an "investment" in the Penguins, entitling him to a percentage of whatever the teams ends up making off the arena.

Am I reading too much into this? My understanding was the commitment of 7.5 a year was thrown across the board to whichever group was granted the license. It was not an investment, not a partnership, and it did not entitle the subsequent winner to any payback from the Penguins as a result of their contribution.
YES IT IS!!!!!!! It is in the agreement they have with the gaming board,And when they award the License to them they have to SIGN A CONTRACT adhering to all the conditions in the CONTRACT!!!!

I'm glad its not just me.

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:47 pm

ryan21081 wrote:Think about it. Lemieux has no more than a HS diploma. And even that he got from a tutor because he was too busy to go to an actual school. Hes not a lawyer and is pretty much out of his league when dealing with poloticians. If he moves the team i hold him fully responsible.

True, but Mario does not need to be trained in law, the Pens have a team of lawyers for legal issues - as well as personnel who have business training and credentials, and personnel and/or consultants who specialize in government negotiations.

If the Pens move, I blame everyone.

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:50 pm

I emailed Belko to have him elaborate. I will let you guys know what I hear.

Keep the faith people, this is a negotiation with several 100mill at stake. In the end they stay.

I agree - everyone needs to put down the jump to conclusions mats and let's see how this plays out. (easier said then done of course!). The roller coaster ride is almost over.

Noise · Post by **Noise** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:35 pm

Steve wrote:
ryan21081 wrote:Think about it. Lemieux has no more than a HS diploma. And even that he got from a tutor because he was too busy to go to an actual school. Hes not a lawyer and is pretty much out of his league when dealing with poloticians. If he moves the team i hold him fully responsible.
True, but Mario does not need to be trained in law, the Pens have a team of lawyers for legal issues - as well as personnel who have business training and credentials, and personnel and/or consultants who specialize in government negotiations.

If the Pens move, I blame everyone.

I blame my parents for conceiving me. If I was never born I wouldn't have to worry about this ****.

Buckycat7 · Post by **Buckycat7** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:18 pm

I still think this is all spin...so if this deal can't get done everything else can blame the Penguins ownership. After reading all these reply I'm pretty sure it's working, half of all posters have turned against ownership already.

No way this is the "best" deal, I'm sure that both sides still have something up their sleeves. Why I still think that the deal should get done, if the officials keep adding more and more fees, like now charging rent, splitting the parking plus making the penguins pay for a part of the building it only makes that Kansas City offer look better. Yeah I get it that the team wouldn't be getting all the money from that building, but with all these extra fees the city is adding on to the deal, really how much more are they going to get? I doubt a lot more. Plus with Kansas City they get the new building next year and not in 2 years. Don't let that fool you that they don't care if they don't get a new building for a couple years, if the money ends up being very close they will take the new building next year.

As for Kansas City not having any money, Johnson County, KS is it part of the Greater Kansas City Metro area is on of the top 5 richest counties pre capita in the US, including major companies like Sprint, Yellow, and Garmam. There is really a lot of money in that area which is at most a 20 minute drive from where the arena is going to be.

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:37 pm

I don't know which effect of Thursday's meeting has been bigger: Pens fans getting depressed, or KC fans getting optimistic.

At the end, this will all end up the way we all expected. After my initial mental overreaction, I'm right back where I was on Wednesday. This is all going to work out just fine. There's way too much upside for having them stay, from both the Lemieux Group's financial position, and from the position of the politicians. None of that has changed.

They aren't going anywhere.

Post by **imau2fan** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:57 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:I don't know which effect of Thursday's meeting has been bigger: Pens fans getting depressed, or KC fans getting optimistic.

What KC fans?

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:58 pm

Maybe I meant KC trolls?

Post by **Jasmine** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:17 pm

SportsFan wrote:

THEY CAN'T GET A FREE ARENA. NO WAY!

Please don't say that governor-speak. Had the Isle of Capri won the license, they would be turning over $290 million to the SEA for construction. If that's not "free," then it's as close as any city has ever come.
Now, Don Barden says we have to wait until he starts making money for him to contribute his $7.5 mil per year. That's at least one year, maybe two. Who will be financing arena construction until then?
I hope you see the difference between the two plans and why some people call the IOC a "free" arena and feel we are still on [thin ice] as far as the Pens staying.
Let's go, Pens!!!

Post by **Jasmine** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:23 pm

NJ5934 wrote:

It is just me, or is anyone else seeing "Mr. Barden" as an emerging rat in this whole matter.

You are not alone in questioning Mr. Barden. My favorite bit of history is that when a gambling license was being handed out in Detroit, he insisted that it should go to a "local" person - that being HIM. ha ha He obviously had no such sympathies for Mario Lemieux in the process here!

Post by **skullman80** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:28 pm

Jasmine wrote:SportsFan wrote:
THEY CAN'T GET A FREE ARENA. NO WAY!
Please don't say that governor-speak. Had the Isle of Capri won the license, they would be turning over $290 million to the SEA for construction. If that's not "free," then it's as close as any city has ever come.
Now, Don Barden says we have to wait until he starts making money for him to contribute his $7.5 mil per year. That's at least one year, maybe two. Who will be financing arena construction until then?
I hope you see the difference between the two plans and why some people call the IOC a "free" arena and feel we are still on [thin ice] as far as the Pens staying.
Let's go, Pens!!!

The construction will be funded by floating bonds, so Barden not having the money right this second really means nothing.

The bonds, plus interest, will all be paid back over X number of years.

marioisgod · Post by **marioisgod** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:31 pm

What everyone keeps seeming to ignore is the fact that the NHL will have
to ALLOW the team to move. With a viable arena plan being offered,
I really can't see that as a reality. The only way I think it would be
possible is if the Pittsburgh Plan is vastly inferior to the KC one, and from
all accounts, it is at least equal to if not superior to the KC one. Remember,
it isn't all about the LG at this point, it is about the NHL product. Bettman
would look really foolish after saying publicly a couple of months ago that
the team would stay in PGH with a viable arena plan and then allowing it
to move only based on ownership's "greed".

Post by **Jasmine** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:45 pm

marioisgod wrote:

The only way I think it would be
possible is if the Pittsburgh Plan is vastly inferior to the KC one, and from
all accounts, it is at least equal to if not superior to the KC one.

By what accounts? We haven't heard anything from the Penguins, only the politicians. And you don't question that? Also, Gary Bettman's comments right after IOC lost their bid for the license indicates that he will back Mario in whatever he decides.
PS IF Mario moves the team, it will be because Plan B fails, not because he doesn't like you or any of us fans. That's the dumbest concept ever!!!! Mario's first choice would be and always has been to keep the team here if possible . . . even though Onorato and the mayor didn't back him at all.

Post by **skullman80** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:52 pm

Jasmine wrote:marioisgod wrote:
The only way I think it would be
possible is if the Pittsburgh Plan is vastly inferior to the KC one, and from
all accounts, it is at least equal to if not superior to the KC one.
By what accounts? We haven't heard anything from the Penguins, only the politicians. And you don't question that? Also, Gary Bettman's comments right after IOC lost their bid for the license indicates that he will back Mario in whatever he decides.
PS IF Mario moves the team, it will be because Plan B fails, not because he doesn't like you or any of us fans. That's the dumbest concept ever!!!! Mario's first choice would be and always has been to keep the team here if possible . . . even though Onorato and the mayor didn't back him at all.

Revenues is the key here. As long as the Pens get 100% of all hockey and non-hockey revenues here, that makes the deal better here regardless of no rent in KC.

The only revenue they are haggling over now is parking it seems.

DayWalker · Post by **DayWalker** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:00 pm

Where is Kevin Bacon when you need him?

Anyway, as this whole episode continues to demonstrate, none of us have any idea what is going on with these negotiations, what other cities or entities are or were willing to offer, what Plan B entails, etc. Anybody who pretended to know or lectured others for completely justifiable concern about the Penguins remaining in Pittsburgh are beginning to look a bit foolish.

However, what is troubling is that a governor who insisted on non-public negotiations is suddenly pleading his case publicly. The fact that his public protest involves comparing the Plan B financing plan to previous financing plans for others teams in the commonwealth may be the beginning of a plan to fit Lemieux and Burkle for the black hats if the team leaves. One simply doesn't know at this point, but the news coming out of the last meeting, the Penguins' posture, the new terms imposed on the team, Rendell's rhetoric and willingness to "negotiate" publicly certainly shouldn't be encouraging to anybody.

That Rendell is focusing on what the Penguins might get versus the Steelers/Eagles/Pirates/Phillies or other teams around the league-instead of what is actually being offered in KC-is a clear example of somebody who either just doesn't get it or isn't serious enough to do what may be necessary to keep the team in town.

I guess we will find out soon.

Post by **profpolisci** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:58 pm

more likely than not correct except i'm not sure rendell's statements qualify as 'media negotiation' in as much as they are devoid of specifics. personally. i just think he believes he's got it right.
a crucial factor in all this:. over-achieving successful alpha-males like ed rendell don't like to lose. of course the same can be said for ron burkle.
and for what it's worth, my experience (hence my perspective) would have me betting (hypothetically) my life that the only battleground in either of these egomaniacs minds is pittsburgh pennsylvania.