LGP Education thread

[tifosi77]

Drafty, I don't know if you ever listen to the NPR show "Left, Right & Center" but its host is a moderate Dem named Matt Miller. His clarion call of the last couple years now has been improving education to gain improvements across the economic spectrum of society.

I don't see why it has to be one way or the other. You can believe in a higher power and still think evolution is a legitimate theory.

The big issue I have is with certain specifics of the creation stories in my Judeo-Christian upbringing. (I, too, was raised in a Roman Catholic family, fwiw)

God creating man in his own image and taking a rib from his creation's body to make Eve is incompatible with any and all notions of evolution. I know the official position of the Vatican today is that evolution is the real deal..... but I cannot see how the two notions can be reconciled. The only conceivable way they can coexist is if god created the primordial ooze with the basic building blocks of life (however many billions of years ago) and then sat back and awaited developments. But that's not the way the good book sets things forth.

Out of curiosity just now I Googled* the phrase "bible vs evolution". I clicked the very first result on my list to a site called clarifyingchristianity.com. A little more than halfway down the screen on the home page I read this line: "The only explanation you will find in public school and university textbooks is the theory of evolution. Yet, no scientific, provable evidence supporting the theory of evolution has emerged since Charles Darwin popularized it in 1859." (emphasis added)

That's my problem with having creationism anywhere near a public school or a science class.






* I am using the Google Chrome browser, and when I typed 'Googled' it was underlined red as a typo.

[AlexPKeaton]

I don't really care about creationism vs evolution. To me it is just an issue for debating federal vs local control of school curriculum. Evolution of humans is what, 2 days out of your entire high school science curriculum? Evolution of organisms is much more important and that is what is typically taught in an advanced high school biology class. Evolution of humans is a historical question that is only tangentially related to science. So you know that humans have evolved from organisms. That is good to know I guess. But that is the same category of knowing about the battle of Stalingrad.

Creationism is not some dangerous idea that needs to be eliminated. It is actually a rather quaint idea that leads down the path of humanism. If every person is part of some divine plan, then obviously we shouldn't be committing murder or genocide. But anyway, there is a lot more to a good science education than evolution.

To your point about the Catholic position tifosi, I think the Catholics were very wise to adopt evolution into their catechism. The Catholic church had a front row seat to what happens if certain ideas get co-opted by people with a desire for power. If you don't claim some spiritual backing for evolution, then evolution can lead to Eugenics, and Eugenics can lead to Nazis.

[count2infinity]

At one particular school in Bedford County, a man shows up to pretty much every school board meeting asking them to put a sticker on the inside of every science book used in the school that says something along the lines of "The content of this Book is only one of many possible explanations of how the world came to be." The guy is hilarious because he wants it in physics, chemistry and biology books... the first two don't even deal with evolution.

[bh]

The various creation myths from around the world are perfect for a comparative religion class.

Yes. Awesome. They should have more religion classes in high school. Keep it out of science... unless you have a science of religion or a religion of science class.

I align myself along the lines of MRandall, in that I feel Christianity and Evolution do not mutually exclude each other. I also feel to an ordinary Joe, who cares? I don't sit around reading evolutionary scientific journals for the latest research into evolution and I seriously doubt any candidate for office does either. How does the issue in any way affect the office of the presidency? I guess you could argue that it shows us who has been co-opted by the religious wacko's but other than that it is irrelevant to the governance of our nation.

[doublem]

no creation please.

[MWB]

I don't really care about creationism vs evolution. To me it is just an issue for debating federal vs local control of school curriculum.

Curriculum is decided at a local level.

[count2infinity]

I don't really care about creationism vs evolution. To me it is just an issue for debating federal vs local control of school curriculum.

Curriculum is decided at a local level.

There are many in education that would like to see this done away with and have a national curriculum. I personally disagree with that. I think that the curriculum should be decided at the local level and even further than that should be at the discretion of the teacher, but that's just me.

[MWB]

I don't really care about creationism vs evolution. To me it is just an issue for debating federal vs local control of school curriculum.

Curriculum is decided at a local level.

There are many in education that would like to see this done away with and have a national curriculum. I personally disagree with that. I think that the curriculum should be decided at the local level and even further than that should be at the discretion of the teacher, but that's just me.

To me it depends on the subject matter. Math is math is math. If you have a group of mathematicians and learning experts who can say this is what needs to be known and this is the proper order, I think that's logical. Same with some of the sciences. Same with a lot of language arts material. Social studies is different and can be a lot more localized. As it is now, local curricula change often, which hurts.

[count2infinity]

it may not be as cut and dry as you think... i know for just chemistry alone there are numerous approaches that "experts" say is the proper order of how to present information. Even at the school I taught at that had 2 chemistry teachers, we both taught in a different pattern because we both had a different opinion on what was more important to present first versus later down the road.

[MWB]

it may not be as cut and dry as you think... i know for just chemistry alone there are numerous approaches that "experts" say is the proper order of how to present information. Even at the school I taught at that had 2 chemistry teachers, we both taught in a different pattern because we both had a different opinion on what was more important to present first versus later down the road.

And in a case like that, I agree that it should be the teacher's discretion.

[Draftnik]

I don't really care about creationism vs evolution. To me it is just an issue for debating federal vs local control of school curriculum.

Curriculum is decided at a local level.

There are many in education that would like to see this done away with and have a national curriculum. I personally disagree with that. I think that the curriculum should be decided at the local level and even further than that should be at the discretion of the teacher, but that's just me.

To me it depends on the subject matter. Math is math is math. If you have a group of mathematicians and learning experts who can say this is what needs to be known and this is the proper order, I think that's logical. Same with some of the sciences. Same with a lot of language arts material. Social studies is different and can be a lot more localized. As it is now, local curricula change often, which hurts.

Not necessarily. We had some crap here in PTSD called integrated math. Kids learned pre-algebra, geometry and algebra in some kind of integrated series of courses. It put us at a disadvantage in terms of performance improvement relative to USC so it has to be changed. There are a few intelligent, well intentioned people on our school board but it is controlled by a cabal of self serving morons that are out of their depth making decisions about education.

[Draftnik]

Here are some interesting op-ed pieces and studies.

Nobel laureate Paul Krugman claims 6 of every 7 jobs in the USA is in the service industry and thus protected from foreign competition:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/13/opini ... &seid=auto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, there’s a global economy. But six out of seven American workers are employed in service industries, which are largely insulated from international competition, and even our manufacturers sell much of their production to the domestic market.

A study re: the value of teachers:

http://obs.rc.fas.harvard.edu/chetty/value_added.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/opini ... ef=general" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is my point about why education is so important:

schools represent a tough-minded business investment in our economic future

Why college is important even though the standard of living for a college grad has declined from 69 to 09:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/ ... go/?src=tp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Intelligence is critical to scoring well on standardized tests. Self control is critical to getting good grades in classes:

http://scottbarrykaufman.com/article/st ... ind-bonus/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MWB]

There are a few intelligent, well intentioned people on our school board but it is controlled by a cabal of self serving morons that are out of their depth making decisions about education.

Which actually leads me to something else I was meaning to bring up. One thing that would certainly help is having a more informed, well educated school board. They make a lot of decisions, and many of them just make choices that are idiotic, to your point.

[MWB]

To me it depends on the subject matter. Math is math is math. If you have a group of mathematicians and learning experts who can say this is what needs to be known and this is the proper order, I think that's logical. Same with some of the sciences. Same with a lot of language arts material. Social studies is different and can be a lot more localized. As it is now, local curricula change often, which hurts.

Not necessarily. We had some crap here in PTSD called integrated math. Kids learned pre-algebra, geometry and algebra in some kind of integrated series of courses. It put us at a disadvantage in terms of performance improvement relative to USC so it has to be changed. There are a few intelligent, well intentioned people on our school board but it is controlled by a cabal of self serving morons that are out of their depth making decisions about education.

I'm confused... what are you saying not necessarily to?

[Draftnik]

To me it depends on the subject matter. Math is math is math. If you have a group of mathematicians and learning experts who can say this is what needs to be known and this is the proper order, I think that's logical. Same with some of the sciences. Same with a lot of language arts material. Social studies is different and can be a lot more localized. As it is now, local curricula change often, which hurts.

Not necessarily. We had some crap here in PTSD called integrated math. Kids learned pre-algebra, geometry and algebra in some kind of integrated series of courses. It put us at a disadvantage in terms of performance improvement relative to USC so it has to be changed. There are a few intelligent, well intentioned people on our school board but it is controlled by a cabal of self serving morons that are out of their depth making decisions about education.

I'm confused... what are you saying not necessarily to?

"Math is math"

The integrated approach adopted by the ignorant PTSD school board is a less effective way to teach pre-algebra, geometry, & algebra.

[MWB]

I think your comment about PTSD helps illustrate the point I was trying to make. If there were a uniform track for math that mathematicians agreed on as the best way to go, poor school boards wouldn't come up with these ineffective methods.

[MWB]

School district in Texas eliminates sports in an effort to increase test scores:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/21/te ... latestnews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[count2infinity]

Interesting... I don't necessarily agree with it, as sports are a good outlet for many, and in a time where "everyone wins", I feel as though school sports are one of the few times that students get to feel the pain of defeat and from there know how to deal with loss and defeat. At the same time, sports have always been and will always be a privilege to play, not a right.

[MWB]

I find it interesting that this doesn't seem to be a financial decision. They just want there to be more time for tutoring and make it a strictly "academic school." Apparently their biggest problem is attendance and getting parents to be involved. If that's the case, they're punishing some kids who might actually be more involved through athletics for the actions of parents. Seems like it will be counter-productive.

[Draftnik]

An interesting opinion piece with some striking (if they are true) statistics comparing and contrasting economic & societal disparity across classes & time among white Americans:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... stpop_read" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Uneducated people (at the macro level) are condemned to a harder life. I can't imagine how a parent could be so cruel to put their child on such a hard lifelong path.

[Draftnik]

Former Harvard President & Secretary of Treasury Lawrence Summers on the future of Higher Ed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/educa ... .html?_r=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MWB]

Former Harvard President & Secretary of Treasury Lawrence Summers on the future of Higher Ed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/educa ... .html?_r=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Most of the things mentioned are changes being implemented in many elementary, middle, and high schools.

[Draftnik]

Another study pointing to higher quality of life for educated people:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/educa ... ef=general" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Physical_Graffiti]

Interesting... I don't necessarily agree with it, as sports are a good outlet for many, and in a time where "everyone wins", I feel as though school sports are one of the few times that students get to feel the pain of defeat and from there know how to deal with loss and defeat. At the same time, sports have always been and will always be a privilege to play, not a right.

I completely disagree. Right to play, ftw:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_To_Play" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[King Sid the Great 87]

An interesting opinion piece with some striking (if they are true) statistics comparing and contrasting economic & societal disparity across classes & time among white Americans:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... stpop_read" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Uneducated people (at the macro level) are condemned to a harder life. I can't imagine how a parent could be so cruel to put their child on such a hard lifelong path.

Is it really that hard to imagine? How many people do you know with the financial means to leave that decided to stay in a failure of a school district in a poor neighborhood? How many were there in the first place?

How many people in Peters Township packed up and headed to New Ken?

Did you read the entire article you posted? Like people group together. Most kids in poor school districts weren't deprived by their parents; their parents had no better choice. The parents failed in life long before they had kids. Nobody intentionally lives down.

Now if you want to argue they were cruel to their kids by having them in the first place with no feasible means of providing a legit opportunity, I'll agree.