LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

[PensFanInDC]

....Then again scientists now say dolphins are people so what do I know? lol http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 16960.html

I'm on board with that idea.

You want to marry a dolphin...don't you?

Just one?

Polygamadolphiny?

[Tomas]

Pastafarian (member of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) allowed to wear his headgear on the official Czech ID card:



Story:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... cture.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Shyster]

Maybe create a new position. Comfort giver.

That position already exists.

I thought they were called “Sergeants.”

PRIVATE, YOU ARE IN THE UNITED STATES ARMY, AND SO LONG AS YOU ARE IN MY ARMY I AM YOUR MOMMY, DADDY, PRIEST, AND GOD. YOU WILL PULL YOUSELF TOGETHER AND GET BACK ON DUTY OR I WILL PLANT MY BOOT SO FAR UP YOU BUTT MY SHOELACES WILL BE STICKING OUT YOUR NOSE.

[Rylan]

I despise open mockery of religion like the Flying Spaghetti Monster implies. It is nothing more than an open insult to those that have a belief in a higher power. The entire point of it is so those that do not believe can continue to make themselves feel more important and intelligent. It is a **** measurement that is abhorrent and above all else as disrespectful as atheists/agnostics claim religious zealots to be. /rant

[columbia]

[GSdrums87]

That is friggin' awesome.

[largegarlic]

I'm almost finished with Charles Taylor's book, A Secular Age. Basically, he tries to trace the historical/philosophical development of various religious concepts to explain how we got to the era we're in, in which many people see religious belief as more or less a personal choice, not something dictated by overwhelming evidence in one direction or another. He also does a bit to argue against the obviousness of the scientific atheist viewpoint. Taylor is a Catholic and wants to make the case that it is intellectually respectable to have a certain sort of religious faith and agree with much modern science and liberal political theory.

It's a very interesting read and has helped me better appreciate the series of developments that led to this atheist/believer conflict that we see a lot in society.

[Kraftster]

Sounds very interesting.

I think one of the most compelling reasons to believe in something spiritual/greater than us/design/etc. is simply the sense of awe and wonder that one feels when considering.. all of this (for lack of a better way of saying it). Be it a particularly breathtaking bit of natural beauty or the overwhelming scope of our universe, there's definitely an emotional pull. Ultimately, in my cold and logical mind that seems to allow for very little "feeling" anymore, I chalk this up to a panic move to counteract the overwhelming sense of insignificance that should come from juxtaposing the self with these grand things. Its frightening and shatters our self-centered view of the universe to realize how impossibly small we are. Chalking that up to the big man upstairs brings that boiling pot down to a simmer, though.

[Pavel Bure]

I despise open mockery of religion like the Flying Spaghetti Monster implies. It is nothing more than an open insult to those that have a belief in a higher power. The entire point of it is so those that do not believe can continue to make themselves feel more important and intelligent. It is a **** measurement that is abhorrent and above all else as disrespectful as atheists/agnostics claim religious zealots to be. /rant

I cannot disagree more. It is quite a useful tool in fighting against those that would use more... mainstream I guess religion as a means of asserting power over something or someone. For example the school in Florida that thought intelligent design... well here's the excerpt.

In December 2007, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was credited with spearheading successful efforts in Polk County, Florida to dissuade the Polk County School Board from adopting new science standards on evolution. The issue was raised after five of the seven board members declared a personal belief in intelligent design. Opponents describing themselves as Pastafarians sent e-mails to members of the Polk County School Board demanding equal instruction time for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.[77] Board member Margaret Lofton, who supported intelligent design, dismissed the e-mail as ridiculous and insulting, stating, "they've made us the laughing stock of the world." Lofton later stated that she had no interest in engaging with the Pastafarians or anyone else seeking to discredit intelligent design. As the controversy developed, scientists expressed their opposition to the claims of intelligent design. Hopes for a new campus focused on applied science at the University of South Florida in northeast Lakeland were reportedly in question, but the university vice president, Marshall Goodman, expressed surprise, stating, "[intelligent design is] not science. You can't even call it pseudo-science." While unhappy with the outcome, Lofton chose not to resign over the issue. She and the other board members expressed a desire to return to the day-to-day work of running the school district.

[GSdrums87]

"Lofton later stated that she had no interest in engaging with the Pastafarians or anyone else seeking to discredit intelligent design."

Hehehe

[Rylan]

I despise open mockery of religion like the Flying Spaghetti Monster implies. It is nothing more than an open insult to those that have a belief in a higher power. The entire point of it is so those that do not believe can continue to make themselves feel more important and intelligent. It is a **** measurement that is abhorrent and above all else as disrespectful as atheists/agnostics claim religious zealots to be. /rant

I cannot disagree more. It is quite a useful tool in fighting against those that would use more... mainstream I guess religion as a means of asserting power over something or someone. For example the school in Florida that thought intelligent design... well here's the excerpt.

In December 2007, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was credited with spearheading successful efforts in Polk County, Florida to dissuade the Polk County School Board from adopting new science standards on evolution. The issue was raised after five of the seven board members declared a personal belief in intelligent design. Opponents describing themselves as Pastafarians sent e-mails to members of the Polk County School Board demanding equal instruction time for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.[77] Board member Margaret Lofton, who supported intelligent design, dismissed the e-mail as ridiculous and insulting, stating, "they've made us the laughing stock of the world." Lofton later stated that she had no interest in engaging with the Pastafarians or anyone else seeking to discredit intelligent design. As the controversy developed, scientists expressed their opposition to the claims of intelligent design. Hopes for a new campus focused on applied science at the University of South Florida in northeast Lakeland were reportedly in question, but the university vice president, Marshall Goodman, expressed surprise, stating, "[intelligent design is] not science. You can't even call it pseudo-science." While unhappy with the outcome, Lofton chose not to resign over the issue. She and the other board members expressed a desire to return to the day-to-day work of running the school district.

It is still an open insult. It could achieve just as much without the mockery.

[Pavel Bure]

I despise open mockery of religion like the Flying Spaghetti Monster implies. It is nothing more than an open insult to those that have a belief in a higher power. The entire point of it is so those that do not believe can continue to make themselves feel more important and intelligent. It is a **** measurement that is abhorrent and above all else as disrespectful as atheists/agnostics claim religious zealots to be. /rant

I cannot disagree more. It is quite a useful tool in fighting against those that would use more... mainstream I guess religion as a means of asserting power over something or someone. For example the school in Florida that thought intelligent design... well here's the excerpt.

In December 2007, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was credited with spearheading successful efforts in Polk County, Florida to dissuade the Polk County School Board from adopting new science standards on evolution. The issue was raised after five of the seven board members declared a personal belief in intelligent design. Opponents describing themselves as Pastafarians sent e-mails to members of the Polk County School Board demanding equal instruction time for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.[77] Board member Margaret Lofton, who supported intelligent design, dismissed the e-mail as ridiculous and insulting, stating, "they've made us the laughing stock of the world." Lofton later stated that she had no interest in engaging with the Pastafarians or anyone else seeking to discredit intelligent design. As the controversy developed, scientists expressed their opposition to the claims of intelligent design. Hopes for a new campus focused on applied science at the University of South Florida in northeast Lakeland were reportedly in question, but the university vice president, Marshall Goodman, expressed surprise, stating, "[intelligent design is] not science. You can't even call it pseudo-science." While unhappy with the outcome, Lofton chose not to resign over the issue. She and the other board members expressed a desire to return to the day-to-day work of running the school district.

It is still an open insult. It could achieve just as much without the mockery.

Still an open insult? How so? Are people that believe in Buddah or Allah an open insult to Christianity? Why is this any different?

[Idoit40fans]

I'm not a Pastafarian, but I don't understand the insult. If people believe in it, let them believe in it. I certainly don't.

[largegarlic]

Sounds very interesting.

I think one of the most compelling reasons to believe in something spiritual/greater than us/design/etc. is simply the sense of awe and wonder that one feels when considering.. all of this (for lack of a better way of saying it). Be it a particularly breathtaking bit of natural beauty or the overwhelming scope of our universe, there's definitely an emotional pull. Ultimately, in my cold and logical mind that seems to allow for very little "feeling" anymore, I chalk this up to a panic move to counteract the overwhelming sense of insignificance that should come from juxtaposing the self with these grand things. Its frightening and shatters our self-centered view of the universe to realize how impossibly small we are. Chalking that up to the big man upstairs brings that boiling pot down to a simmer, though.

Like I said, I haven't quite finished it (the discussion in this thread just reminded me of it), but I think his final move is to describe something like you did here. There are some experiences in which people feel like they come into contact with some spiritual force that transcends the natural world (not necessarily an anthropomorphic god). For some people, these experiences will lead to religious faith; for others, they won't. So, it's not that everyone should be religious, but that people should recognize that religious faith of a certain sort isn't necessarily irrational or a sign of intellectual/emotional immaturity.

As a lifelong non-believer who has had trouble understanding religious belief, I find this to be a helpful explanation.

[Idoit40fans]

Wait...do people that have faith not consider it irrational? If something is rational, how is it being accepted on faith? Seems like if something is rational, faith doesn't enter into the equation.

[Rylan]

Because it started as mockery of religion. The original "spaghetti monster" was from a letter written about evolution and such to a school board in Kansas. Since then, social media atheists have adopted it as their "god" and many have used it in a negative manner to belittle others. Much like the same thing they despise from other religions. That is why I see it as an insult.

[PensFanInDC]

It offends God. It doesn't offend me. Do what you want. You're still a cool guy in my book

[Pavel Bure]

It offends God. It doesn't offend me. Do what you want. You're still a cool guy in my book

How do you know what God is or isn't offended by?

[Kraftster]

Wait...do people that have faith not consider it irrational? If something is rational, how is it being accepted on faith? Seems like if something is rational, faith doesn't enter into the equation.

Maybe not in the rational = reason(able) sense but in the rational = "sensible" .... sense.

[since1970]

I always thought along the lines that religion was used more for manipulation and control of the masses, almost like a cosmic police force, and if you lived according to the prescripts of the religion you were promised something better in an "afterlife". I always wondered how phrases like "fear of God", and "wrath of God" came to be, if you were living in a time where being ignorant and uneducated was the norm the people in power, who were the minority could keep the majority in line by envoking God and what would happen to them if they disobeyed. Eternal damnation, burning in the fires of hell and all sorts of wonderful things. I know that woulda put the fear of God in to me.

[PensFanInDC]

It offends God. It doesn't offend me. Do what you want. You're still a cool guy in my book

How do you know what God is or isn't offended by?

Okay....I can answer this question under the condition that you take my answer, agree or disagree, and leave it at that. You don't believe in God or that the Bible is God's word. That's your choice. I, however, do.

How do I know? I read (pronounced: reed) the Bible.

[PensFanInDC]

I also feel this will be relevant to this thread lol

[GSdrums87]

Haha good job leaving it at the answer-and-done, because that ****-storm of an argument has been talked to death.

[largegarlic]

Wait...do people that have faith not consider it irrational? If something is rational, how is it being accepted on faith? Seems like if something is rational, faith doesn't enter into the equation.

I'm by no means an expert on this, but I think this is a point of deviation between Catholicism and Protestantism. Catholics think that rationality and belief in God are completely compatible--hence St. Thomas Aquinas providing arguments to demonstrate that belief in God is the only rational option. Protestants, on the other hand, focus more on making that internal leap of faith that isn't necessarily rational--hence Kierkegaard saying that Christianity is the best religion because it is the most contradictory (i.e. least rational), and so provides the opportunity for the greatest amount of faith.

More recently, Catholic philosophers like Plantinga argue that belief in God is rational in that at least some people have direct sensible experience of the divine and then choose to believe it exists. That's rational in the same way that someone might see bigfoot repeatedly, initially try to dismiss it as a hallucination, but ultimately have to accept that the most rational option is to trust their experience.

[PensFanInDC]

Haha good job leaving it at the answer-and-done, because that **** of an argument has been talked to death.

I've learned not to argue with "Because it's in the Bible". It's a circular argument that won't change someone's mind. However, I was asked how I know. I know because I believe the Bible is the word of God and there are plenty of examples in said text that back up my point. I also know the questioner does not have the same belief as me so I know my explanation will not suffice. We will agree to disagree and remain super best internet buddies instead