Yohe interviewed Sully. Asked him about the perception that he favors vets over younger players. Sully responds by talking about Conor Sheary in 2016
Yeah 9 years ago he gave a shot to him on Sid’s wing and we have yet to see it again. And that was when we lacked any depth and forced his hand.
Why not see Blake Lizotte up there - better overall player than Sheary. Give Rust to Malkin to boost that line.
He had Cody No Goals Glass on that line for months
Sure Mike...it took you 31 games to figure out that Matt Nieto does not in fact give you the best chance to win. Most fans figure it out in about 5 games.
As you said BlackNGold, going back NINE YEARS to cite your example is the definition of being tone deaf to the actual issue. It also lends credence to the assumption that, while maybe a few adjustments have been made, Sullivan still thinks his system from 10 years ago works well in today's NHL with the team he has had over the past few years. If the 1st round exits didn't prove it, nor will 3 years of missing the playoffs...what will?
Yohe interviewed Sully. Asked him about the perception that he favors vets over younger players. Sully responds by talking about Conor Sheary in 2016
Yeah 9 years ago he gave a shot to him on Sid’s wing and we have yet to see it again. And that was when we lacked any depth and forced his hand.
Why not see Blake Lizotte up there - better overall player than Sheary. Give Rust to Malkin to boost that line.
He had Cody No Goals Glass on that line for months
Sure Mike...it took you 31 games to figure out that Matt Nieto does not in fact give you the best chance to win. Most fans figure it out in about 5 games.
As you said BlackNGold, going back NINE YEARS to cite your example is the definition of being tone deaf to the actual issue. It also lends credence to the assumption that, while maybe a few adjustments have been made, Sullivan still thinks his system from 10 years ago works well in today's NHL with the team he has had over the past few years. If the 1st round exits didn't prove it, nor will 3 years of missing the playoffs...what will?
I also agree that Sullivan treats the older veterans different than the rookies. However over the last nine years, what outstanding prospects has he held back? I would have liked to see more of Poulin and Puustinen, but when those guys were in the line up its not like they brought much to the team. Puustinen seemingly refused to shoot the puck which was his strength. Poulin, I am not sure what his strength was supposed to be, but it wasn't clear in the few opportunities that he had to play. Outside of those two which players careers has he mis-managed? Their real problem, and why they are in their current position has been the lousy drafting from 2014 through 2019. The 2020 group depends on Blomqvist. and 2021 depends on Broz. You can't miss on those many drafts and still be contenders regardless of who the coach is.
Yohe interviewed Sully. Asked him about the perception that he favors vets over younger players. Sully responds by talking about Conor Sheary in 2016
Yeah 9 years ago he gave a shot to him on Sid’s wing and we have yet to see it again. And that was when we lacked any depth and forced his hand.
Why not see Blake Lizotte up there - better overall player than Sheary. Give Rust to Malkin to boost that line.
He had Cody No Goals Glass on that line for months
Sure Mike...it took you 31 games to figure out that Matt Nieto does not in fact give you the best chance to win. Most fans figure it out in about 5 games.
As you said BlackNGold, going back NINE YEARS to cite your example is the definition of being tone deaf to the actual issue. It also lends credence to the assumption that, while maybe a few adjustments have been made, Sullivan still thinks his system from 10 years ago works well in today's NHL with the team he has had over the past few years. If the 1st round exits didn't prove it, nor will 3 years of missing the playoffs...what will?
I also agree that Sullivan treats the older veterans different than the rookies. However over the last nine years, what outstanding prospects has he held back? I would have liked to see more of Poulin and Puustinen, but when those guys were in the line up its not like they brought much to the team. Puustinen seemingly refused to shoot the puck which was his strength. Poulin, I am not sure what his strength was supposed to be, but it wasn't clear in the few opportunities that he had to play. Outside of those two which players careers has he mis-managed? Their real problem, and why they are in their current position has been the lousy drafting from 2014 through 2019. The 2020 group depends on Blomqvist. and 2021 depends on Broz. You can't miss on those many drafts and still be contenders regardless of who the coach is.
In short, we don't know, Sheary was not wery good in his first games either, neither was Rust or Jake, but they got the time there to be something. That is a opportunity that none have gotten since then, we don't know if Puusty would have been the next Sheary, or someone else because we can't go back and try again. And that is the problem, it is hard to prove he is wrong since we never can know.
Yohe interviewed Sully. Asked him about the perception that he favors vets over younger players. Sully responds by talking about Conor Sheary in 2016
Yeah 9 years ago he gave a shot to him on Sid’s wing and we have yet to see it again. And that was when we lacked any depth and forced his hand.
Why not see Blake Lizotte up there - better overall player than Sheary. Give Rust to Malkin to boost that line.
He had Cody No Goals Glass on that line for months
Sure Mike...it took you 31 games to figure out that Matt Nieto does not in fact give you the best chance to win. Most fans figure it out in about 5 games.
As you said BlackNGold, going back NINE YEARS to cite your example is the definition of being tone deaf to the actual issue. It also lends credence to the assumption that, while maybe a few adjustments have been made, Sullivan still thinks his system from 10 years ago works well in today's NHL with the team he has had over the past few years. If the 1st round exits didn't prove it, nor will 3 years of missing the playoffs...what will?
I also agree that Sullivan treats the older veterans different than the rookies. However over the last nine years, what outstanding prospects has he held back? I would have liked to see more of Poulin and Puustinen, but when those guys were in the line up its not like they brought much to the team. Puustinen seemingly refused to shoot the puck which was his strength. Poulin, I am not sure what his strength was supposed to be, but it wasn't clear in the few opportunities that he had to play. Outside of those two which players careers has he mis-managed? Their real problem, and why they are in their current position has been the lousy drafting from 2014 through 2019. The 2020 group depends on Blomqvist. and 2021 depends on Broz. You can't miss on those many drafts and still be contenders regardless of who the coach is.
I think his biggest problem is a lack of patience for younger players. Sheary, Rust, Jake weren't great or consistent early on but Sullivan let them work through it on the bottom lines. Nothing wrong with putting Poulin on the 4th line and let him move up. I get the frustration with Puustinen to not shoot, but you work through those.
They haven't drafted a blue chip prospect in probably 15 years (Jake and Rust were way better than anticipated) but that doesn't mean they didn't draft useful players. As bad as their drafting has been, the development is worse and the NHL opportunities and patience even worse than that. Not much Sullivan can do about the drafting but he no longer seems interested in developing players like he used to. Heck, Kuhnhackl isn't as good as Poulin, Puustinen, etc. but Sullivan showed a lot of patience with him and put him in a position to succeed. As a result he played about 150 games over 3 seasons. I'll give some leeway on Poulin because his mental health issues really hurt his development.
Yohe interviewed Sully. Asked him about the perception that he favors vets over younger players. Sully responds by talking about Conor Sheary in 2016
Yeah 9 years ago he gave a shot to him on Sid’s wing and we have yet to see it again. And that was when we lacked any depth and forced his hand.
Why not see Blake Lizotte up there - better overall player than Sheary. Give Rust to Malkin to boost that line.
He had Cody No Goals Glass on that line for months
Sure Mike...it took you 31 games to figure out that Matt Nieto does not in fact give you the best chance to win. Most fans figure it out in about 5 games.
As you said BlackNGold, going back NINE YEARS to cite your example is the definition of being tone deaf to the actual issue. It also lends credence to the assumption that, while maybe a few adjustments have been made, Sullivan still thinks his system from 10 years ago works well in today's NHL with the team he has had over the past few years. If the 1st round exits didn't prove it, nor will 3 years of missing the playoffs...what will?
I also agree that Sullivan treats the older veterans different than the rookies. However over the last nine years, what outstanding prospects has he held back? I would have liked to see more of Poulin and Puustinen, but when those guys were in the line up its not like they brought much to the team. Puustinen seemingly refused to shoot the puck which was his strength. Poulin, I am not sure what his strength was supposed to be, but it wasn't clear in the few opportunities that he had to play. Outside of those two which players careers has he mis-managed? Their real problem, and why they are in their current position has been the lousy drafting from 2014 through 2019. The 2020 group depends on Blomqvist. and 2021 depends on Broz. You can't miss on those many drafts and still be contenders regardless of who the coach is.
I think his biggest problem is a lack of patience for younger players. Sheary, Rust, Jake weren't great or consistent early on but Sullivan let them work through it on the bottom lines. Nothing wrong with putting Poulin on the 4th line and let him move up. I get the frustration with Puustinen to not shoot, but you work through those.
They haven't drafted a blue chip prospect in probably 15 years (Jake and Rust were way better than anticipated) but that doesn't mean they didn't draft useful players. As bad as their drafting has been, the development is worse and the NHL opportunities and patience even worse than that. Not much Sullivan can do about the drafting but he no longer seems interested in developing players like he used to. Heck, Kuhnhackl isn't as good as Poulin, Puustinen, etc. but Sullivan showed a lot of patience with him and put him in a position to succeed. As a result he played about 150 games over 3 seasons. I'll give some leeway on Poulin because his mental health issues really hurt his development.
Agreed Daniel. It's definitely a lack of patience with young players. The second something bad happens with a younger player, instead of viewing it as a chance to learn, Sullivan reverts back to trusting his vets, who just so happen to make the same if not worse mistakes that rookies make!
Like last night, after that Letang gaff on the 1st goal in the 3rd period, Sully pulled back Koly's ice time significantly. That's not player development! I really hope KD hires a coach with the mandate that we are going to play and develop and trust our younger players next season!
The Sully way hasn't worked for years. He's out of excuses already. Prime example. Sullivan said all the things the team did wrong last night in the 3rd. Guess what. That means the team isn't listening to your message any longer! Teams with a lead in the 3rd don't constantly have their defensman pinching. It's a combination of the players not playing the system and the coach not adjusting the system. Such a mess. Be done.
The Sheary quote was damning, IMO. Sure, they haven't been aces with their draft picks but that lack of patience does not allow for an assessment of what a player could be. Sometimes a decent AHLer develops into a pretty good NHLer - not most of the time but sometimes. I don't feel that leeway is given in any way to younger guys. I just don't.
A lot us (me included) site Puljujarvi as an example, and even though he cleared waivers, I still think he could have been an effective bottom 6 guy with potential to fill in higher in the lineup. He had 3 goals, 6 assists in 26 games averaging 11-plus minutes of ice time. For comparison, whipping boy Nieto had 1 goal, 2 assists in 31 games with 12-plus minutes. Nieto never looked like a fantastic penalty killer, although that was the line. Puljujarvi was bigger, faster, and younger, and could have killed penalties just as well (poorly?) with more of a chance to score a shorty.
Poulin looks like a bust. But again, I don't feel he ever got, say, 20 games in various situations to see if he settled into something. These guys get a few shifts, make one mistake, and are stapled to the bench. Or, their ice time goes down as the game progresses. Ponomarev had a 4-game stint and averaged a shade over 9 minutes. Probably for the best that he went back to WBS.
Sheary came up, played pretty well early on. Then went a little cold, comparatively, bumped down and out in short order, back on the bus to WBS.It was his second time up he was afforded a little more time. The first time around, he got the Sullivan [tm] exerience we know and don't love.
This is my biggest problem i see with sully, he doesn't put players in position to succeed and play to their strengths. Very very few people have stepped into this team and exceeded expectations, most players that come here become a shadow of themselves, think of all the players we signed /traded for the past 5 years, almost everyone of them has been a disappointment. This has been a trend for a long time with this team.
Yeah 9 years ago he gave a shot to him on Sid’s wing and we have yet to see it again. And that was when we lacked any depth and forced his hand.
Why not see Blake Lizotte up there - better overall player than Sheary. Give Rust to Malkin to boost that line.
He had Cody No Goals Glass on that line for months
Sure Mike...it took you 31 games to figure out that Matt Nieto does not in fact give you the best chance to win. Most fans figure it out in about 5 games.
As you said BlackNGold, going back NINE YEARS to cite your example is the definition of being tone deaf to the actual issue. It also lends credence to the assumption that, while maybe a few adjustments have been made, Sullivan still thinks his system from 10 years ago works well in today's NHL with the team he has had over the past few years. If the 1st round exits didn't prove it, nor will 3 years of missing the playoffs...what will?
I also agree that Sullivan treats the older veterans different than the rookies. However over the last nine years, what outstanding prospects has he held back? I would have liked to see more of Poulin and Puustinen, but when those guys were in the line up its not like they brought much to the team. Puustinen seemingly refused to shoot the puck which was his strength. Poulin, I am not sure what his strength was supposed to be, but it wasn't clear in the few opportunities that he had to play. Outside of those two which players careers has he mis-managed? Their real problem, and why they are in their current position has been the lousy drafting from 2014 through 2019. The 2020 group depends on Blomqvist. and 2021 depends on Broz. You can't miss on those many drafts and still be contenders regardless of who the coach is.
I think his biggest problem is a lack of patience for younger players. Sheary, Rust, Jake weren't great or consistent early on but Sullivan let them work through it on the bottom lines. Nothing wrong with putting Poulin on the 4th line and let him move up. I get the frustration with Puustinen to not shoot, but you work through those.
They haven't drafted a blue chip prospect in probably 15 years (Jake and Rust were way better than anticipated) but that doesn't mean they didn't draft useful players. As bad as their drafting has been, the development is worse and the NHL opportunities and patience even worse than that. Not much Sullivan can do about the drafting but he no longer seems interested in developing players like he used to. Heck, Kuhnhackl isn't as good as Poulin, Puustinen, etc. but Sullivan showed a lot of patience with him and put him in a position to succeed. As a result he played about 150 games over 3 seasons. I'll give some leeway on Poulin because his mental health issues really hurt his development.
Agreed Daniel. It's definitely a lack of patience with young players. The second something bad happens with a younger player, instead of viewing it as a chance to learn, Sullivan reverts back to trusting his vets, who just so happen to make the same if not worse mistakes that rookies make!
Like last night, after that Letang gaff on the 1st goal in the 3rd period, Sully pulled back Koly's ice time significantly. That's not player development! I really hope KD hires a coach with the mandate that we are going to play and develop and trust our younger players next season!
The Sully way hasn't worked for years. He's out of excuses already. Prime example. Sullivan said all the things the team did wrong last night in the 3rd. Guess what. That means the team isn't listening to your message any longer! Teams with a lead in the 3rd don't constantly have their defensman pinching. It's a combination of the players not playing the system and the coach not adjusting the system. Such a mess. Be done.
When they won the back to back cups, the Penguins didn't rely on Jankowski's and ERod's and other random PTO turned contract players. They relied on about a half dozen WBS kids rotating through until they found their spot. They traded for Kessell before the season but went in with the 4th line pretty well open. After the 2nd cup win, they stopped doing that. Now I get that WBS has never had a bonafide 1st or 2nd line or top pairing guy but you fill your bottom 6 with Kuhnhackl, Wilson, Hagelin, Bonino, then throw a guy like Eric Fehr or Matt Cullen in for stability and faceoffs.
Stop relying on fringe NHL players at the expense of your own draft picks and create competition. Before they became stars, Rust and Jake weren't considered anything but bottom six guys. Can you imagine if they couldn't get a chance because of Mark Jankowski or Brendan Morrow?
The Sheary quote was damning, IMO. Sure, they haven't been aces with their draft picks but that lack of patience does not allow for an assessment of what a player could be. Sometimes a decent AHLer develops into a pretty good NHLer - not most of the time but sometimes. I don't feel that leeway is given in any way to younger guys. I just don't.
A lot us (me included) site Puljujarvi as an example, and even though he cleared waivers, I still think he could have been an effective bottom 6 guy with potential to fill in higher in the lineup. He had 3 goals, 6 assists in 26 games averaging 11-plus minutes of ice time. For comparison, whipping boy Nieto had 1 goal, 2 assists in 31 games with 12-plus minutes. Nieto never looked like a fantastic penalty killer, although that was the line. Puljujarvi was bigger, faster, and younger, and could have killed penalties just as well (poorly?) with more of a chance to score a shorty.
Poulin looks like a bust. But again, I don't feel he ever got, say, 20 games in various situations to see if he settled into something. These guys get a few shifts, make one mistake, and are stapled to the bench. Or, their ice time goes down as the game progresses. Ponomarev had a 4-game stint and averaged a shade over 9 minutes. Probably for the best that he went back to WBS.
Everyone talks about who they could have drafted X player over Y player. I think if they drafted the X player we'd just be having the opposite conversation and asking why they didn't draft the Y player.
When talking about this re-tool we are on, we spend a lot of time discussing the forwards and how can we add younger scorers into the lineup.
But this defense needs to be blown up. Letang needs to be playing 2nd pairing minutes going forward. He has taken a huge step back this season and the coach is too stubborn to recognize it.
Karlsson will most likely get dealt this summer. Hopefully we can get something useful back in the trade.
Gryz I hope they let go. Same with POJ.
That leaves under contract next season, Shea, Koly, Graves. Timmins is an RFA who will be back. Pickering should be a regular next season. But that's a whole lot of bottom pairing D men on the roster. I doubt they will rush Brunicke into the lineup seeing how conservative we were with playing kids this season.
I also wouldn't be surprised if we went the offer sheet route for a d man. Nothing crazy, but similar to what St. Louis did where we give up a 2nd/3rd round pick. We have 3 2nd round picks in 26.
Bottom line is the D core is in shambles. In a perfect world I would like to see something like this:
New guy/New guy (Karlsson trade?)
Pickering/Letang
Koly/Timmins
On a soft rebuild team, I would be pleased with D pairs on opening night like :
Pickering - Letang
Kolyachonok - Timmins
Shea - Brunicke
X- Graves
About young-ish guys, I'm surprised for the LoveAffair Sully had with very unefficient Glass on 2nd line.. he played huge amount of games with Geno and mustered up 1 goal and 3-4 assists.
If Puljujarvi would get 30 games with Geno I'm pretty sure he would have at least 5 - 6 goals..
When talking about this re-tool we are on, we spend a lot of time discussing the forwards and how can we add younger scorers into the lineup.
But this defense needs to be blown up. Letang needs to be playing 2nd pairing minutes going forward. He has taken a huge step back this season and the coach is too stubborn to recognize it.
Karlsson will most likely get dealt this summer. Hopefully we can get something useful back in the trade.
Gryz I hope they let go. Same with POJ.
That leaves under contract next season, Shea, Koly, Graves. Timmins is an RFA who will be back. Pickering should be a regular next season. But that's a whole lot of bottom pairing D men on the roster. I doubt they will rush Brunicke into the lineup seeing how conservative we were with playing kids this season.
I also wouldn't be surprised if we went the offer sheet route for a d man. Nothing crazy, but similar to what St. Louis did where we give up a 2nd/3rd round pick. We have 3 2nd round picks in 26.
Bottom line is the D core is in shambles. In a perfect world I would like to see something like this:
New guy/New guy (Karlsson trade?)
Pickering/Letang
Koly/Timmins
Graves/Shea
In other words, it's ugly!
Letang has been dumb as dirt for over a decade, which is why the trade for EK was so incredibly stupid.
When talking about this re-tool we are on, we spend a lot of time discussing the forwards and how can we add younger scorers into the lineup.
But this defense needs to be blown up. Letang needs to be playing 2nd pairing minutes going forward. He has taken a huge step back this season and the coach is too stubborn to recognize it.
Karlsson will most likely get dealt this summer. Hopefully we can get something useful back in the trade.
Gryz I hope they let go. Same with POJ.
That leaves under contract next season, Shea, Koly, Graves. Timmins is an RFA who will be back. Pickering should be a regular next season. But that's a whole lot of bottom pairing D men on the roster. I doubt they will rush Brunicke into the lineup seeing how conservative we were with playing kids this season.
I also wouldn't be surprised if we went the offer sheet route for a d man. Nothing crazy, but similar to what St. Louis did where we give up a 2nd/3rd round pick. We have 3 2nd round picks in 26.
Bottom line is the D core is in shambles. In a perfect world I would like to see something like this:
New guy/New guy (Karlsson trade?)
Pickering/Letang
Koly/Timmins
Graves/Shea
In other words, it's ugly!
I don't know if it amounts to anything, but Ivan Provorov is a UFA and I've come across multiple rumor mentions that linked Pittsburgh to him. Whether Karlsson is dealt or not, we definitely need a top pairing LHD. It probably won't happen but it is something to ponder. He's only 28 and I don't think he would break the bank, especially with cap space we have. My thinking is we'll add a top pairing D and a top 6 forward this offseason.
Unless there is way to moves Graves' contract, I would not mind going into next season with the LD as it is: Shea, Pickering, Kolyachonok and Graves. Let POJ and Grzelcyk walk. Anyone else you bring in there is a huge chance that Pickering is blocked because Sully loves his veterans and Pickering is waivers exempt.
RD depends on what happens with Karlsson. Hopefully he's traded. If somehow Dubas manages to trade for a guy like Clarke or Nemec, it has to be for Karlsson's spot. There's not enough icetime for Letang, Karlsson and someone you want to keep developing. Letang, Clarke/Nemec/Karlsson's replacement, Timmins. I'd leave a spot open to take a look at Brunicke, at least for 9 games, even if it is rotating every other game with Timmins or whoever other RD we have next season.
As a rebuilding team, have guys like Král and Hollowell as injury call-ups. They are doing well in WBS.
I don't know if it amounts to anything, but Ivan Provorov is a UFA and I've come across multiple rumor mentions that linked Pittsburgh to him. Whether Karlsson is dealt or not, we definitely need a top pairing LHD. It probably won't happen but it is something to ponder. He's only 28 and I don't think he would break the bank, especially with cap space we have. My thinking is we'll add a top pairing D and a top 6 forward this offseason.
Provorov was rumored to have exchanged offers with Columbus before the deadline. His younger brother commited to Ohio State starting next season.
If ever hits the market, it's someone who will get a lot of interest. Same with Chychrun.
“Karlsson will most likely get dealt this summer. Hopefully we can get something useful back in the trade.”
Not if the Penguins are going to Sweden next year. Ain’t happening.
Interesting take, But I do not think that will have anything to do with what happens this summer. If it does, this management team will prove to be amateur at best.
On a soft rebuild team, I would be pleased with D pairs on opening night like :
Pickering - Letang
Kolyachonok - Timmins
Shea - Brunicke
X- Graves
About young-ish guys, I'm surprised for the LoveAffair Sully had with very unefficient Glass on 2nd line.. he played huge amount of games with Geno and mustered up 1 goal and 3-4 assists.
If Puljujarvi would get 30 games with Geno I'm pretty sure he would have at least 5 - 6 goals..
Yeah, I'd say stink it up next year to try to get another high-end pick and see what the younger guys have, so don't bring in any higher-priced d-men from outside who could lift the team out of the bottom-10 and block guys like Pickering from the lineup.
“Karlsson will most likely get dealt this summer. Hopefully we can get something useful back in the trade.”
Not if the Penguins are going to Sweden next year. Ain’t happening.
Interesting take, But I do not think that will have anything to do with what happens this summer. If it does, this management team will prove to be amateur at best.
I wouldn't mind if the Pens wheeled and dealed and showed up in Sweden with Hållander as the only Swede in the lineup.
