Would you trade 2025 8th overall for Mason McTavish?

[Puck-Lurker]

I'm not willingly wanting to move him, and I don't think there is anything wrong with him. I just don't think in the grand scheme of things he tops at a 4/5 defenseman.

If I presented you a trade opportunity that absolutely upgrades the team, and was a younger player....but I told you that you had to include one of McGroarty, Koivunen, Murashov, Brunicke, Pickering or Pieniniemi in the deal, who are you choosing? I'm betting 95% of the people on the board are choosing Pieniniemi or Pickering, and the former only because they haven't seen him at the pro level yet.

Pickering is a good prospect, but I don't think he'll be a great player. A good player, yes. Or, I could be totally wrong.

I'd part with Pieniniemi in that case, Pickering has a better stick and slightly more size.

[Cow_Master66]

I hope they don’t trade that pick for anything unless it’s for more picks in the next 2-3 drafts.

I'd say that's very unlikely. Dubas wants to make this team better soon. Unless there's something in the shape of one of the trades with STL, 2nd 2025 and 5th 2026 for 2nd 2026 and 3rd 2025, I'd expect to either bring players in for picks, like the Tomasino and Timmins/Dewar trades, or younger players that are closer to NHL ready, similalrly to the McGroarty-Yager deal.

I agree, I think Dubas is under pressure to turn it around quickly and open some extra magical 2-3 year window with Crosby still playing at a high level. I personally hate the thought this personally, but I do think this is the approach they will take. I think that’s why they didn’t move Rackell, didn’t ask Rust to waive his NTC, etc.

To dovetail in the football analogy that was used above, this team doesn’t have great wingers, great D, good goaltending, etc. They have a bunch of dudes that are at the end of the line. Some are already past the line, yet still playing 20 minutes a night.

They could have turned it around quickly if they could have parted ways with some familiar faces, but they opted not to. It was a dumb way to do business, but I accepted it as a fan, knowing this franchise was pushing back a true rebuild 3 extra years.

The problem is now, if what we believe Dubas is looking to do is true, run the risk of pushing the next truly competitive window out even further. Because, in order to really try to win another cup in the next 3 years, they would have to trade what little assets they have in terms of picks and prospects. Take Mushy for example….a potential superstar goalie, would almost certainly have to be moved. Certainly all your high picks would be gone.

I just think the risk of mortgaging yet again to try for a cup with a team that depends on so many guys 35+ years old, is totally unrealistic.

Rant over….i do think this is the route they will go though, so let’s enjoy the ride I suppose.

A couple of thoughts and comments here:

--We have 18 picks over the first 3 rounds of the next 3 drafts. We have plenty of draft capital right now.

--McGroarty, Koivunen, Pieniniemi, Brunicke, and Murashov should be our current untouchables. If the Penguins feel they need to move Broz, Pickering, Blomqvist, Howe, etc to help upgrade the team with an under 25 year old player, I don't have a problem with that.

--It's early, and I'm sure some of it is the first 3-5 game adrenaline jump, but RMG and Koivunen are greatly impressing, and showing traits of being able to handle top 6 roles moving forward. It's not just "oh, McGroarty has a goal and some assists, he's great." Watch him closely. He rarely goes above the dots in the offensive zone, and if he does, it is usually just to move and reposition himself. He is the complete opposite of a perimeter player. He's always in the dirty areas. I don't see issues with his skating, his IQ is very high, and he's very good defensively. At a minimum, I think he's Rust 2.0.

--I think we need to be reminded of how spoiled we are as Penguins fans....Lemieux-->Jagr--Sid/Geno. Dynasty for about 5 years in the early 90s, dynasty for most of the Sid and Geno era. The chances of this team rebuilding and immediately getting another player in the 66/68/87/71 realm are actually pretty slim, and so are the chances of building another dynasty. I think Penguins fans are going to have to get used to more having 5-8 year windows, and relying more on overall team concept than a generational talent.

--Expanding on the last point, I think as long as Sid is a 20 point, 60-70 point player, he may continue playing. Right now, I think he outlives the extension he just signed. Maybe he goes to a year by year status after that. Malkin I believe retires next season, as he's clearly declining. Letang, I think he gets traded before his contract ends. So, I think very soon, Sid will be the only one of the core left. And, with RMG and Koivunen exceeding my expectations or cautious optimism, this team might not be that far away from being annually competitive. This is why I keep hammering top 6 centers and top pairing d-men. This is why I started the poll about McTavish, because getting a young 2C would be a big add for this team. You could leave Sid with Rakell and Rust, and put McTavish with RMG and Koivunen. Get some good tweeners to play with Malkin next year on the 3rd line...so if any of the top 6 wingers are injured we have adequate replacements....not someone like Cody Glass or Connor Dewar. Remaking the defense will be a bit tougher.

To put things in perspective, when McGroarty was up with the big club the first time, he received pretty negative reviews around here. That was only a few weeks ago. The point being that these sample sizes shouldn't be looked at, whether it's positive or negative. The good news is that he not only looks good, but looks like he's improving in the area he needed to the most, which was skating. This is all positive and hopefully we see continued improvement.

For fans that are hoping for a "quick retool", I can't see the logic of listing guys who have never played an NHL game as an untouchable. I say that mostly because if KD wants to truly compete over the next 2-3 seasons, there's no way he wouldn't trade any of the guys listed above. I don't see any way around it personally. Guys like Broz, Blonqvist, Howe, and even Brunicke, and Pieninimi aren't gonna fetch much. Not for the type of players this team needs to honestly think they have a chance of winning a few playoff rounds. "We" might like those guys (mostly because our pipeline is just ass), but good luck finding a GM that's going to part with a top 6 for 1 or even a few of them. Then the problem is, this team needs a bunch of guys. They have zero depth, a completely inept defense, which is also wildly overpaid, zero goaltending, and are almost fully dependent on guys over 35.

Yes, they have draft capital, but KD would have to work some insane magic to turn what little we have into dumping bloated D contracts, then rebuilding almost the entire D core, then finding 1-2 top 6 guys and also acquiring the required depth to do what they are trying to do.

Having said all that, like I mentioned earlier, I do think they are going to try to pull it off. I don't think we will ever see some of your untouchables in a Penguins uniform because that's gonna be the cost to try and find lightening in a bottle.

[Daniel]

I'm not willingly wanting to move him, and I don't think there is anything wrong with him. I just don't think in the grand scheme of things he tops at a 4/5 defenseman.

If I presented you a trade opportunity that absolutely upgrades the team, and was a younger player....but I told you that you had to include one of McGroarty, Koivunen, Murashov, Brunicke, Pickering or Pieniniemi in the deal, who are you choosing? I'm betting 95% of the people on the board are choosing Pieniniemi or Pickering, and the former only because they haven't seen him at the pro level yet.

Pickering is a good prospect, but I don't think he'll be a great player. A good player, yes. Or, I could be totally wrong.

The scouting reports read about the same for both and I think you're choosing Pieniniemi because you've never seen him. Maybe I'm wrong, but neither one of us have watched either play a lot. Pickering reminds me of a bigger Pettersson or Dumoulin with more offensive upside. If the Penguins are so close that they can make a trade for the type of player that would get anyone in the list, Pickering might be the last one you trade UNLESS you have a better stay at home type, which I think he will be (even Murasov is in a deeper prospect position). I'd love to see him and Brunicke together to see how they can gel. I think they can be a nice top pairing if they continue to develop.

Out of your list, I'd trade Koivunen or McGroarty for the simple fact that neither are game breakers and defensemen usually take longer to develop and harder to find. I'd rather trade none of them, but if I had to I'd go F over D or G all things being equal.

[Daniel]

Dubas has done some min-maxing, trying to add young players with some talent, in exchange for fair value down to barely anything. I'd be in favour of continuing down that path.

Lizotte was a good addition, hurt currently but back next season.

Hayes was worth the experiment, but apart from the return for taking his contract, he doesn't add much to a team. NHL calibre stick, JMFC speeds.

Glass was a swing.. and a miss. At least in terms of a middle six center. Came in with a small bag of goodies, went out the same way.

Novak has only had two games, which is annoying. He will either be a decent middle six center.. or someone to be shipped out for a pick.

Dewar has played center, but I get the distinct feeling Jarry will be playing C before Dewar ever will. Wasn't impressed with the addition, maybe Timmins was the sweetener at the time?

Ponomarev needs to see NHL ice next season, during the first year of his next contract. Came in the Rent-A-Jake Bundle.

Broz had his first AHL year. I'm not sure in what role he's deployed mostly, his points aren't impressive. Looking for him to improve.

Thing is, none of this had much if any *cost*. Meaning there are assets to direct towards other things, like.. defense. Ours sucks, badly.

I think Broz had a nice year, but doesn't project to be anything more than a 3rd line guy. He scored about as much as Bryan Rust his rookie year at about the same age. Not saying he'll be as good as Rust, but he has nice size and I think he's a good skater so that's always a good starting point.

[100565]

I don't think anyone is untouchable. Some players are certainly more valuable.

If somehow a legit, young 1C became available, I would certainly package McGroarty, Rangers 1st, and Pickering to make an offer. I wouldn't like losing any of those, but 1Cs are hard to get. In recent years, making a trade like that would deplete all good prospects, not now though.

[Daniel]

I don't think anyone is untouchable. Some players are certainly more valuable.

If somehow a legit, young 1C became available, I would certainly package McGroarty, Rangers 1st, and Pickering to make an offer. I wouldn't like losing any of those, but 1Cs are hard to get. In recent years, making a trade like that would deplete all good prospects, not now though.

You also don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul either. Look at Edmonton, they have a lot of slick skilled players but lack the grit to compete for the cup. With the McTavish discussion, if he's that young and that good why would Anaheim trade him? He's 22 and hasn't had a 50 point season (or just this year, can't remember). It's not like the return will get them over the hump. Even though the prospect pool is looking good, who replaces McGroarty and who replaces Pickering?

I'd rather bottom out and get a drafted guy than someone from another team. Maybe Ryan Roobroeck, who is 17 and already 6'4 190. Or Mathis Preston who is compared to Joe Sakic.

[Maestro]

I’ve watched McTavish a bit this year and maybe I’m his lucky charm but he has looked like the best player on the ice each of the 5 or so times Ive seen them play.

If the 1st is 8 or later I’d say do it. I’d even throw in Broz if needed.

But also that should actually get a deal done. Save the ducks money.

[Victor]

I don't think anyone is untouchable. Some players are certainly more valuable.

If somehow a legit, young 1C became available, I would certainly package McGroarty, Rangers 1st, and Pickering to make an offer. I wouldn't like losing any of those, but 1Cs are hard to get. In recent years, making a trade like that would deplete all good prospects, not now though.

You also don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul either. Look at Edmonton, they have a lot of slick skilled players but lack the grit to compete for the cup. With the McTavish discussion, if he's that young and that good why would Anaheim trade him? He's 22 and hasn't had a 50 point season (or just this year, can't remember). It's not like the return will get them over the hump. Even though the prospect pool is looking good, who replaces McGroarty and who replaces Pickering?

I'd rather bottom out and get a drafted guy than someone from another team. Maybe Ryan Roobroeck, who is 17 and already 6'4 190. Or Mathis Preston who is compared to Joe Sakic.

If Anaheim ever makes McTavish available, I don't think it would be a skill issue. He's a RFA this summer, so he has some say if he stays or not. He's also not eligible for arbitration, which means that Anaheim can't force him to sign a new deal. FLPensFan mentioned Cronin making non-flattering comments about McTavish that could stir up contract negotiations.

[100565]

I don't think anyone is untouchable. Some players are certainly more valuable.

If somehow a legit, young 1C became available, I would certainly package McGroarty, Rangers 1st, and Pickering to make an offer. I wouldn't like losing any of those, but 1Cs are hard to get. In recent years, making a trade like that would deplete all good prospects, not now though.

You also don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul either. Look at Edmonton, they have a lot of slick skilled players but lack the grit to compete for the cup. With the McTavish discussion, if he's that young and that good why would Anaheim trade him? He's 22 and hasn't had a 50 point season (or just this year, can't remember). It's not like the return will get them over the hump. Even though the prospect pool is looking good, who replaces McGroarty and who replaces Pickering?

I'd rather bottom out and get a drafted guy than someone from another team. Maybe Ryan Roobroeck, who is 17 and already 6'4 190. Or Mathis Preston who is compared to Joe Sakic.

I don't think McTavish is a legit 1C. I would not trade thise players for him. I was meaning in general, if the right player became available, I would move any one.

Regarding Edmonton, I think they were hurt the most by the cap freeze. If typical cap increases occurred, they would have had more cap space to fill in their roster. Since no cap increases for several years they had little cap space to eventually fill in their roster.

I do think teams with elite talent are much more likely to compete for cups than teams without elite talent. The Crosby/Malkin, Jagr, Lemieux times are done. Finding another one of those will be a long time, so this rebuild will not be centered around a generational type player. They do need elite talent though...

[Daniel]

I don't think anyone is untouchable. Some players are certainly more valuable.

If somehow a legit, young 1C became available, I would certainly package McGroarty, Rangers 1st, and Pickering to make an offer. I wouldn't like losing any of those, but 1Cs are hard to get. In recent years, making a trade like that would deplete all good prospects, not now though.

You also don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul either. Look at Edmonton, they have a lot of slick skilled players but lack the grit to compete for the cup. With the McTavish discussion, if he's that young and that good why would Anaheim trade him? He's 22 and hasn't had a 50 point season (or just this year, can't remember). It's not like the return will get them over the hump. Even though the prospect pool is looking good, who replaces McGroarty and who replaces Pickering?

I'd rather bottom out and get a drafted guy than someone from another team. Maybe Ryan Roobroeck, who is 17 and already 6'4 190. Or Mathis Preston who is compared to Joe Sakic.

I don't think McTavish is a legit 1C. I would not trade thise players for him. I was meaning in general, if the right player became available, I would move any one.

Regarding Edmonton, I think they were hurt the most by the cap freeze. If typical cap increases occurred, they would have had more cap space to fill in their roster. Since no cap increases for several years they had little cap space to eventually fill in their roster.

I do think teams with elite talent are much more likely to compete for cups than teams without elite talent. The Crosby/Malkin, Jagr, Lemieux times are done. Finding another one of those will be a long time, so this rebuild will not be centered around a generational type player. They do need elite talent though...

You need elite talent, but you also need diverse talent. Even with the cap freeze, Edmonton failed to get guys like Bryan Rust or even Scott Wilson, cheap guys that can excel on the 3rd/4th lines. They never developed guys like Dumoulin or Ruhwedel and always seem to fail in the playoffs because of a lack of grit and secondary depth.

Notice the Penguins never won a cup without young secondary players? Even with 3 superstars for 20+ years, it took the ELC contract gritty players to put them over the top. Plus good goaltending.

[pekkasteele]

I don't think anyone is untouchable. Some players are certainly more valuable.

If somehow a legit, young 1C became available, I would certainly package McGroarty, Rangers 1st, and Pickering to make an offer. I wouldn't like losing any of those, but 1Cs are hard to get. In recent years, making a trade like that would deplete all good prospects, not now though.

You also don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul either. Look at Edmonton, they have a lot of slick skilled players but lack the grit to compete for the cup. With the McTavish discussion, if he's that young and that good why would Anaheim trade him? He's 22 and hasn't had a 50 point season (or just this year, can't remember). It's not like the return will get them over the hump. Even though the prospect pool is looking good, who replaces McGroarty and who replaces Pickering?

I'd rather bottom out and get a drafted guy than someone from another team. Maybe Ryan Roobroeck, who is 17 and already 6'4 190. Or Mathis Preston who is compared to Joe Sakic.

I don't think McTavish is a legit 1C. I would not trade thise players for him. I was meaning in general, if the right player became available, I would move any one.

Regarding Edmonton, I think they were hurt the most by the cap freeze. If typical cap increases occurred, they would have had more cap space to fill in their roster. Since no cap increases for several years they had little cap space to eventually fill in their roster.

I do think teams with elite talent are much more likely to compete for cups than teams without elite talent. The Crosby/Malkin, Jagr, Lemieux times are done. Finding another one of those will be a long time, so this rebuild will not be centered around a generational type player. They do need elite talent though...

You need elite talent, but you also need diverse talent. Even with the cap freeze, Edmonton failed to get guys like Bryan Rust or even Scott Wilson, cheap guys that can excel on the 3rd/4th lines. They never developed guys like Dumoulin or Ruhwedel and always seem to fail in the playoffs because of a lack of grit and secondary depth.

Notice the Penguins never won a cup without young secondary players? Even with 3 superstars for 20+ years, it took the ELC contract gritty players to put them over the top. Plus good goaltending.

This is true, but you also need top talent, and if we already now starting to get the young diverse talent, we will maybe be better next season, and if we don't get the top talent now, and not then, when/how will we get it? How often are you able to acquire a true 1C other than in the draft?

They don't get traded often of go to FA, only when they are older. The last traded true 1c was like Gretzky (OK, exaggeration) but 2c is easier to trade for.

[Daniel]

I don't think anyone is untouchable. Some players are certainly more valuable.

If somehow a legit, young 1C became available, I would certainly package McGroarty, Rangers 1st, and Pickering to make an offer. I wouldn't like losing any of those, but 1Cs are hard to get. In recent years, making a trade like that would deplete all good prospects, not now though.

You also don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul either. Look at Edmonton, they have a lot of slick skilled players but lack the grit to compete for the cup. With the McTavish discussion, if he's that young and that good why would Anaheim trade him? He's 22 and hasn't had a 50 point season (or just this year, can't remember). It's not like the return will get them over the hump. Even though the prospect pool is looking good, who replaces McGroarty and who replaces Pickering?

I'd rather bottom out and get a drafted guy than someone from another team. Maybe Ryan Roobroeck, who is 17 and already 6'4 190. Or Mathis Preston who is compared to Joe Sakic.

I don't think McTavish is a legit 1C. I would not trade thise players for him. I was meaning in general, if the right player became available, I would move any one.

Regarding Edmonton, I think they were hurt the most by the cap freeze. If typical cap increases occurred, they would have had more cap space to fill in their roster. Since no cap increases for several years they had little cap space to eventually fill in their roster.

I do think teams with elite talent are much more likely to compete for cups than teams without elite talent. The Crosby/Malkin, Jagr, Lemieux times are done. Finding another one of those will be a long time, so this rebuild will not be centered around a generational type player. They do need elite talent though...

You need elite talent, but you also need diverse talent. Even with the cap freeze, Edmonton failed to get guys like Bryan Rust or even Scott Wilson, cheap guys that can excel on the 3rd/4th lines. They never developed guys like Dumoulin or Ruhwedel and always seem to fail in the playoffs because of a lack of grit and secondary depth.

Notice the Penguins never won a cup without young secondary players? Even with 3 superstars for 20+ years, it took the ELC contract gritty players to put them over the top. Plus good goaltending.

This is true, but you also need top talent, and if we already now starting to get the young diverse talent, we will maybe be better next season, and if we don't get the top talent now, and not then, when/how will we get it? How often are you able to acquire a true 1C other than in the draft?

They don't get traded often of go to FA, only when they are older. The last traded true 1c was like Gretzky (OK, exaggeration) but 2c is easier to trade for.

My view is this. Secondary talent or depth, as well as goaltending, takes longer to develop. If anyone we're talking about as being untouchable was truly elite, they'd be in the NHL by now. Build your team with those players since they'll be in the NHL 3-5 years after being drafted. Have that 1 or 2 bad years with top 5 picks and insert the superstar that next season.

Multiple ways of course, but getting a guy like Crosby when you already have Fleury developed as opposed to having to develop Fleury after the fact, which is quicker? Right now the Penguins have a lot of 3rd/4th liners with maybe 2-3 top 6 forwards. Defense is hard to predict since guys like Brunicke/Pickering can be top pairings or even 2nd pairings so won't even try. Top 5 pick in 2026 along with the good young depth they're developing now and the Penguins will compete for a cup pretty quick.