Where are my Gun Owners?

[DelPen]

The people that are stupid and reckless are already going to be carrying a gun no matter what the rules. This is what infuriates me on no carrying in restaurants that serve alcohol in SC right now. It's already against the law to drink and carry and even if it wasn't it's incredibly stupid and irresonsible. Someone who is going to be dumb enough to use a gun in non-self defense legally isn't going to be drinking in a restaurant already, those who would are probably already carrying without a CWP.

Most accidents happen in the home due to unsafe storage of firearms. Which brings us back to resonisbility. I'm torn on what to do. The farthest I would go is shall issue which is as long as you meet all requirements to carry you get your permit. SC is you take a ridiculously easy class for 8 hours, are a state resident and can legally own a gun. Then you wait 90 days and that's it. Looks like IL is a little bit longer wait and training time.

The NRA is all about safety. We are encouraged not to use the word weapon when teaching because a gun is really just a tool (this trips up former LEO's and military all the time). But if you instill safe and resonsible attitudes towards guns the marksmanship is secondary. As far as me, I won't pass anyone who is not safe or doesn't take the class seriously even if they are a great shot. You get your money back and a thank you for coming.

[ffemtreed]

But that's still a 15% error rate in the employment of deadly force, be it accidental discharge, deliberate use against a mis-identified target, or some other friendly fire. That seems high.

How do you deduce that error rate from those statistics? I just don't see how you can make that jump. If there was a 15% error rate of an innocent getting hurt when people use firearms for self defense then we would hear a lot more incidents.

Do those CDC stats account for gang violence as well? I don't have the numbers but I would bet 95% of all shooting are related to gangs and drugs with domestic violence bringing up 4.5% and accidental accidents at around .5%.

So now do you think that mandated 40 hour course would lower those numbers? I personally don't think there would be any significant change. Compare to the police and military who does get extensive training and compare accident rates. Every study I have seen shows the general population has a much lower % of accidents. That tells me its not a training issue.

PS -- Yes, there are a lot of older people that carry a gun everyday, more than you think.

[ffemtreed]

T This is what infuriates me on no carrying in restaurants that serve alcohol in SC right now. It's already against the law to drink and carry and even if it wasn't it's incredibly stupid and irresonsible.

Move a state North! We just got the ability to carry in places that serve alcohol as long as we don't consume.

I HATE the state mandated classes for CCW. I had to waste a whole Saturday and spend 120 bucks for a basic class. I didn't teach anything that wasn't taught at any of my other numerous courses I took that clearly demonstrated basic proficiency of firearms (that goes WAY beyond the states class). I would be more in favor of a quick written test on the states laws if you have prior training. If you pass the test and hold a training cert that cover the same material as the state course, you should be good.

[dodint]

I heard that was coming in NC but never saw that it passed. Must've happened while I was away. Awesome. I always hated that I couldn't carry in some place like an Applebees because there was a 'bar' in the building. So dumb.

[dodint]

Along those same lines, I had a fellow Marine who would argue endlessly that you couldn't carry in a grocery store or gas station because they sell alcohol. He got sell/serve so mixed up in his head that he really tried to dress you down for admitting that you carry in places that sell. The guy was a complete rules nazi and just didn't get it. I'll have to get in touch and invite him to TGIFridays sometime.

[Shyster]

As regards the safety aspect, the data that I have seen (from CDC) were that there are usually around ~105,000 total shooting incidents every year in the U.S., roughly split 30-70 - between fatal and non-fatal. And about 15% of that total are accidental shootings, so ~15,000 per year. Very few of these are hunting accidents (fewer than 100 nationwide), and only 500-600 usually result in death. But that's still a 15% error rate in the employment of deadly force, be it accidental discharge, deliberate use against a mis-identified target, or some other friendly fire. That seems high.

Were those errors committed by persons with CCW permits? If so, were those errors more prevalent in states with low training requirements? For example, Pennsylvania has no training requirements for obtaining a CCW permit. None. You can go get a permit without ever handling or firing a gun in your life. I know people who hold CCW permits who don't even own any guns. If training makes a big difference, then Pennsylvania would presumably have a much higher rate of CCW holders wrongfully using their guns than other states. If that is the case, however, then I've never seen anything to that effect.

[tifosi77]

The NRA is all about safety. We are encouraged not to use the word weapon when teaching because a gun is really just a tool (this trips up former LEO's and military all the time). But if you instill safe and resonsible attitudes towards guns the marksmanship is secondary. As far as me, I won't pass anyone who is not safe or doesn't take the class seriously even if they are a great shot. You get your money back and a thank you for coming.

The NRA is more about marketing and positioning. That bit about calling a firearm a 'tool' comes off as massively disingenuous, and it's not at all surprising that LEO and military stumble on this point. I don't think the military designation of an M4 carbine is an 'Insurgent Persuasion Tool', altho that would make a pretty great t-shirt.

[tifosi77]

How do you deduce that error rate from those statistics? I just don't see how you can make that jump. If there was a 15% error rate of an innocent getting hurt when people use firearms for self defense then we would hear a lot more incidents.

15% of the total gunshot incidents in the U.S. are accidental shootings. Obviously, that number doesn't represent 15% of people who carry (that would be absurd). Some of those are defensive (mis)use, but I would imagine the overwhelming bulk are accidents when simply handling the gun (like cleaning).

So now do you think that mandated 40 hour course would lower those numbers?

I've done a pretty terrible job in this discussion at clarifying my central point; my suggestion isn't really about improving safety, it's about taking fire out of the anti-gun movement. In following the natural course of the discussion I went down the safety rabbit hole without context. In other threads I've cited the statistics about the infinitesimally small crime rate involving gun owners committing some offense with their own legally owned firearm; it's so small that the FBI doesn't even collect data on the subject. Fundamentally, I know safety isn't really the issue. It's more about TSA-style 'security theater'; making it look like safety is the issue. That may come off as stupid (especially considering how much I hate the TSA), but I honestly don't know how else to deal with the outbreak of anti-gun fever every time some nutter goes guano loco in a crowd.

I don't know if you ever wandered in to the dearly departed Political Discussion thread (where most of this talk took place), but perhaps I should reiterate my basic position on gun ownership so you get an idea where I'm coming from. I do believe in the natural right of self-defense and the individual right to possess and carry firearms. But I do not believe the latter is Constitutionally protected, at least I don't believe that what the 2A was meant to recognize when it was drafted. It was not meant to assert an individual right in a vacuum, but it was supposed to serve as a protection of perhaps the ultimate state right; the ability to organize their own militias..... and only in that context alone do individuals have a Constitutionally-protected right keep and bear arms. (I think this is largely because at the time of the passage of the Bill of Rights nearly all of the states had recognized individual rights of firearm possession in their own state constitutions.) And I think that's a big reason why it took 220 years of jurisprudence and evolution of Constitutional interpretation before we got to Heller. However, I recognize that's the law of the land today, and believe me I'm more thankful for that than I probably let on in these debates.

[PensFanInDC]

http://tbo.com/list/columns-tjackson/ja ... -20140112/

Too bad there isn't a political thread where this could be discussed

[mac5155]

http://tbo.com/list/columns-tjackson/ja ... -20140112/

Too bad there isn't a political thread where this could be discussed

(Frankly I think this would be the appropriate thread.)

Hot shot cop, out of state plates, turning a citizen into a criminal. This story has it all. What's a real shame is the taxpayer dollars that are wasted on stuff like this. I would be writing to the NRA to let them know about this, the badge number of the officer, and any other information. Then, I'd be "selling" my guns.

[tifosi77]

That's pretty much how it's done with anything, wrt asserting probable cause during a traffic stop. Taking the passenger's 'inability to corroborate' and turning it into a valid roadside search.

What I'm not so sure about is how the MD officials keyed into the guy in the first place? Are CCWs tied to drivers license numbers? And if so, are those lists published in interstate registers?

[mac5155]

That's pretty much how it's done with anything, wrt asserting probable cause during a traffic stop. Taking the passenger's 'inability to corroborate' and turning it into a valid roadside search.

What I'm not so sure about is how the MD officials keyed into the guy in the first place? Are CCWs tied to drivers license numbers? And if so, are those lists published in interstate registers?

My guess is he saw the CCW permit when he pulled out his license. Fla CCW permits are amongst the best ones to get, non-resident recognized in almost half the states in the US I believe. I think the Dept of Agriculture handles them too; I wouldn't think they would be tied to auto tags or drivers license

[dodint]

Yeah, but why was the weirdo transit authority harassing him to begin with?

Also, they can tell you have a CCW when they run your license.

[mac5155]

Yeah, but why was the weirdo transit authority harassing him to begin with?

Also, they can tell you have a CCW when they run your license.

Not all states. You don't have to have a license to have a CCW permit.

[dodint]

You have to have one to operate a motor vehicle, though.

I was a 911 dispatcher for a minute here in NC, you can tell if an operator has a CCW when you check DCI. But yeah, it's a state system so I'm sure it varies in 50 different ways.

[mac5155]

You have to have one to operate a motor vehicle, though.

I was a 911 dispatcher for a minute here in NC, you can tell if an operator has a CCW when you check DCI. But yeah, it's a state system so I'm sure it varies in 50 different ways.

I can't find specifics, but the fact that Florida's CCW permits are issued by the Dept of Agriculture just leads me to believe it's not affiliated with the DMV or DOJ.

[dodint]

I have no idea if out of state CCW permits are available to NC LEOs. *shrug*

[ffemtreed]

http://tbo.com/list/columns-tjackson/ja ... -20140112/

Too bad there isn't a political thread where this could be discussed

That story doesn't surprise me at all that it happened in MD. There is a reason I moved out of that state at the first chance I got.

Curious why he got pulled over in the first place and what the warning was for.

[PensFanInDC]

http://tbo.com/list/columns-tjackson/ja ... -20140112/

Too bad there isn't a political thread where this could be discussed

That story doesn't surprise me at all that it happened in MD. There is a reason I moved out of that state at the first chance I got.

Curious why he got pulled over in the first place and what the warning was for.

I at least left MoCo and moved to Frederick 4 years ago. It's still MD but much better.

[tifosi77]

I remember driving through Frederick and Montgomery on the way to DC when I was a kid. (From central PA) There was a discernible difference between the two, or at least in how visible the presence of the state policia was. When my mom let me borrow the car to drive to DC by myself for the first time, the only thing she said to me "Please - please - don't speed in Montgomery County."

[DelPen]

I swear there are cops in MoCo who's only job is to catch speeders. Almost everyone in my family got pulled over by the same guy in different parts of the county. He was also the only cop that showed up to court even though there was a bomb scare at a county building.

The ACLU should be all over this case, it's a shame they usually only care about certain rights that align with their political views instead of all civil rights.

[mac5155]

[youtube][/youtube]

[tifosi77]

Probably goes without saying, but I like the sounds of these words together..... Piers Morgan is a turd.

Does he honestly think that on any given day fewer than 245 people around the country defensively use a gun? Well, he didn't hear about it, so it must not have happened. Perhaps he only thinks it counts if you actually fire the gun in self-defense, and the passive deterrent in cases where a criminal simply knows a person to be armed cannot possibly enter into the discussion.

[yubb]

I wouldn't say he "shut him down" exactly.

[Shyster]

Ruger will not make any guns to comply with California's imposition of microstamping requirements, so every semi-auto Ruger pistol will eventually fall off the Golden State's "approved" list.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/0 ... ding-away/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;