Poll: Who would you move in this situation?

[FLPensFan]

(Hypothetical) Dubas returns from the GM meetings tomorrow. He had multiple discussions on the next phase of moves with multiple GMs, and, he actually found 3 different GMs who are interested in the players and their "problem contract."

The return in all 3 deals is expected to be the same: a 2025 2nd and a B/C level prospect.

Dubas cannot make all or multiple of these moves, because each GM would only make the deal with 50% retained for the rest of the contract. The Penguins only have 1 retention slot left until the summer (when Smith and Petry retained deals are gone). The 3 potential players to go out:

--Tristan Jarry, 2.687M retained by the Penguins for the next 3 seasons
--Ryan Graves, 2.25M retained by the Penguins for the next 4 seasons
--Erik Karlsson, 5M retained by the Penguins for the next 2 seasons.

Which move are you making?

[ahawk9]

They will be out from under 2 of the retention spots after this season, so I say they ditch Karlsson now. They can get Jarry some games to see if he regains any semblance of his old all-star form and try to get rid of him either at the deadline or next summer. In the summer, they could retain a bit of his salary for the final three years - no big deal. Graves, I think, they should keep for now and hope he turns it around and can be traded, or they should have plenty of cap space to hold on to him until they can either trade him for something in a year or two, or just ride it out with the contract so they don't have to worry about a buyout. The cap will go up, Malkin will retire, some vets will be shipped out, so I don't think they will have to worry about Graves' contract much.

[KG]

I say retain on Karlsson. I think if they retain that much they should be able to get a good return for him.

[Puck-Lurker]

(Hypothetical) Dubas returns from the GM meetings tomorrow. He had multiple discussions on the next phase of moves with multiple GMs, and, he actually found 3 different GMs who are interested in the players and their "problem contract."

The return in all 3 deals is expected to be the same: a 2025 2nd and a B/C level prospect.

Dubas cannot make all or multiple of these moves, because each GM would only make the deal with 50% retained for the rest of the contract. The Penguins only have 1 retention slot left until the summer (when Smith and Petry retained deals are gone). The 3 potential players to go out:

--Tristan Jarry, 2.687M retained by the Penguins for the next 3 seasons
--Ryan Graves, 2.25M retained by the Penguins for the next 4 seasons
--Erik Karlsson, 5M retained by the Penguins for the next 2 seasons.

Which move are you making?

I keep Graves. He's looking better so far. Graves at 4.5M is better then finding someone to LD better at 2.25M if he keeps the trend upwards.

Jarry... Wait and see. Think you keep him for now, if he plays okay at the NHL level you might still try to trade him later without retention.

Karlsson I would be tempted to trade at 50%. Just find a RHD that can defend and make a simple pass to neutral ice.

[FLPensFan]

It's an interesting scenario, because one would be the most retention for the shortest time (Karlsson), the other 2 have similar retention for longer periods of time.

I went with Karlsson because:
-1) The Penguins spend the 9th most in the league on defense. They aren't getting their moneys worth. I guess it could be worse because Utah and Buffalo are 1 & 2 in defensive spending, and Columbus is 4th. They aren't getting their moneys worth, either.
-2) Jarry hasn't been good...but we have other options there in Ned, Blomqvist, Larsson and longer term even Murashov and Gauthier. Whereas on defense, we don't really have a replacement for Karlsson, but that shouldn't be a reason to keep him and let him keep making bad plays.
-3) Graves has rebounded a little bit. Maybe it's nice to get out of 50% of that contract for 4 years, but I think moving Karlsson allows more flexibility.

[Pitts]

Do you really think they need to retain that much on Karlsson? I would believe he still has a decent rep around the league. Maybe other GM's think it is a system issue? I think, taking back another "bad" contract with a smaller retainer on Karlsson would do it. Or, simply add in one of the numerous new draft picks you have.

[TexasPenguins]

(Hypothetical) Dubas returns from the GM meetings tomorrow. He had multiple discussions on the next phase of moves with multiple GMs, and, he actually found 3 different GMs who are interested in the players and their "problem contract."

The return in all 3 deals is expected to be the same: a 2025 2nd and a B/C level prospect.

Dubas cannot make all or multiple of these moves, because each GM would only make the deal with 50% retained for the rest of the contract. The Penguins only have 1 retention slot left until the summer (when Smith and Petry retained deals are gone). The 3 potential players to go out:

--Tristan Jarry, 2.687M retained by the Penguins for the next 3 seasons
--Ryan Graves, 2.25M retained by the Penguins for the next 4 seasons
--Erik Karlsson, 5M retained by the Penguins for the next 2 seasons.

Which move are you making?

I would pick Karlson to move. But unfortunately I don’t think they would get the return you described for any of them. In fact they may have to include a draft pick or prospect just to get anyone to take Karlsson.

[surffisher2a]

I would do Tristan Jarry because he would not need to be replaced (we already have two goalies), plus its in the middle of years (4vs 2) and in the middle, only slight above the lowest amount per year (2.68 vs 2.25 retained). Jarry seems like a lost cause with this organization, he needs a fresh start somewhere.

Before moving anyone else, I would really like to see how they would perform with a different coach. I am still baffled at how many proven NHL players have come here in the past 3 or so years and completely bombed. The current systems we are playing are not setting anyone up for success.

[FLPensFan]

I would do Tristan Jarry because he would not need to be replaced (we already have two goalies), plus its in the middle of years (4vs 2) and in the middle, only slight above the lowest amount per year (2.68 vs 2.25 retained). Jarry seems like a lost cause with this organization, he needs a fresh start somewhere.

Before moving anyone else, I would really like to see how they would perform with a different coach. I am still baffled at how many proven NHL players have come here in the past 3 or so years and completely bombed. The current systems we are playing are not setting anyone up for success.

Welcome to the board! Good points.

[FLPensFan]

Do you really think they need to retain that much on Karlsson? I would believe he still has a decent rep around the league. Maybe other GM's think it is a system issue? I think, taking back another "bad" contract with a smaller retainer on Karlsson would do it. Or, simply add in one of the numerous new draft picks you have.

The problem is, Karlsson has 2 more years. So, how much does a team need to shed of his salary to fit him beyond this season? At the trade deadline, I believe Karlsson would cost about 2.15M in cap space for the remainder of this season with his full cap hit. With 50% retained, that drops to 1.075M for the rest of this year. That's the easy part. The hard part is, who can fit him under the cap next season at 10M, or even 7.5M, without disrupting the rest of their team, and is the risk worth it when Karlsson is 2 years older and 2 years removed from his Norris season.

I also took a look at FLA, VGK, TB, MIN, NYR, BOS, DAL, NJD, WSH, COL, and EDM. I came up with only 5 players that MAYBE (a maybe at best) that teams could move. Those playoff teams just don't really have bad contract on them. Trouba, Palat, Kotkaniemi, PLD, and Nurse. And I don't think Karlsson would fit well with Fox in NY, Hamilton in NJ, Burns in Carolina, or Carlsson in Washington.

The options are just very limited even if we do retain 50%.

[Wyopen]

I voted to do nothing. That’s a lot of retention on our end for a 2nd round pick and a B/C prospect who won’t make it to the NHL. Graves at this moment in time is the least of our worries. With that much retention, we should get a first, knowing that first is going to a contender and it would be a late pick.

[Dynasty1970]

UGH, Seeing this make one realize just how bad these contracts are!

[100565]

I do nothing. Graves I would not retain. EK and Jarry I would be selling almost as low as they can go, so I wait and hope their performance improves or a contender needs them more.

At this point, I rooting for them to be bad. Really bad. Only glimmer of hope would to fire Sully soon, but that does not seem to be I the cards.

[Cow_Master66]

Whichever would get us a 1st. If none, nothing….what’s to gain other than an attractive pick? We don’t need to find cap space for the next 4-5 seasons.

[EndO FanEra]

If the plan is to keep Sully here for the rest of the season (at a minimum), then I say Karlsson all day, take it and run.

You eat $5M for the next two years, which sucks, but you also gain $5M in cap space for those two years. Rip the band aid off and move on.

Regarding EK himself, well, I'm kind of all over the board with him. I wasn't crazy about the idea of bringing him in here, but I get what Dubas was trying to do. The team needed a shake-up, and the fact that he was able to get rid of some of those bad contracts, I was okay with the deal at the time. I figured maybe he'd be able to elevate our scoring from the back end enough to help compensate for our aging core. Either way, it was going to be interesting. Definitely made me want to tune in.

Prior to him becoming a Penguin, I appreciated that he was a talented player and all, but never really bought into the hype. To be fair, I mostly only watch the Pens closely during the regular season, only catching highlights and a handful of games of other teams. As a life-long Pens fan, I of course often compared him to Letang, whom I always preferred. I was of the opinion that Letang's defensive abilities (acknowledging his glaring weaknesses) and physicality outweighed Karlsson's offensive abilities.

However, when he first became a Pen, and I was able to focus on him more individually on a regular basis. I finally got it. I think it took a few games to settle in a bit, but he was on another level with his offensive abilities. His puck movement, ability to push the puck up ice, and the way he can get the puck on net quickly from different angles far outweighed his occasional defensive gaff. I finally understood what everyone else was talking about over the years and it had me rethinking my preference for Letang a bit.

I don't know exactly when it happened, but sometime over the following weeks/months, everything started to change. The offence started to go away, but the defensive zone issues remained. As far as this season goes, I don't know what to think. It is a complete trainwreck.

I'm a long-time lurker here, so I'm well aware of the Fire Sully conversations. I think I feel like a lot of people do. We appreciate Mike, acknowledge that he is a good/great NHL hockey head coach, will forever love him for bringing us back-to-back cups, but it is time to move on for both parties. He's aware of the criticism, this can't be fun for him either. Whether the players have tuned him out or the system isn't working, it doesn't really matter. They've changed GMs, turned the roster over several times, and they want to keep the core if possible (that's another discussion).

Problem is, the core wants him here and FSG wants him here. IMO, I think Dubas is kind of caught in the middle. Deep down he wants to try a new coaching staff, but the consequences might not be worth it (possibly getting fired or having Sid or others demand a trade and the fans/team rebelling a bit). Or he could really want Sully to stay here and rebuild his future team.

Either way, as long as Sully is here, Karlsson is the biggest elephant in the room for me. His contract combined with his abilities in this system are crippling this team. Sure, there are plenty of other issues, but they'll survive with Shea/St. Ivany/Ludvig/[insert AHL prospect here] for the time being. Maybe they play better tighter defensively, and they have a little more success. Or, they still suck and we keep heading towards a higher draft pick. But you still have $5M in cap space to improve the roster if you want, plus Eller's cap space.

All that said, if Sully were to go, I'd probably rather give Karlsson another shot with a new coaching staff, see how things play out, and maybe revisit a trade at the deadline or off season.

The fact that we'd get a 2nd RP and prospect in return, eat $5M, gain $5M in cap, easy call for me.

Cheers!

[Admin]

I'm a long-time lurker here…

Welcome to the board!

[Pens4Life]

I would move Karlsson,but not with that retention, 50%?!

3M retention max! I think thats reasonable..

Btw. I'm not that sure about core and Sully love, I think they would be fine with fresh voice, ideas, system..

[stonewizard51]

Sully has been running the same game plan long enough so that every team in the league knows how the Pens play and how to defend against it. I don't dislike Sully but I do think it's time to change things up. I'm tired of hearing something to the effect of we weren't difficult enough to play against. Yeah ya think !!

[FLPensFan]

If the plan is to keep Sully here for the rest of the season (at a minimum), then I say Karlsson all day, take it and run.

You eat $5M for the next two years, which sucks, but you also gain $5M in cap space for those two years. Rip the band aid off and move on.

Regarding EK himself, well, I'm kind of all over the board with him. I wasn't crazy about the idea of bringing him in here, but I get what Dubas was trying to do. The team needed a shake-up, and the fact that he was able to get rid of some of those bad contracts, I was okay with the deal at the time. I figured maybe he'd be able to elevate our scoring from the back end enough to help compensate for our aging core. Either way, it was going to be interesting. Definitely made me want to tune in.

Prior to him becoming a Penguin, I appreciated that he was a talented player and all, but never really bought into the hype. To be fair, I mostly only watch the Pens closely during the regular season, only catching highlights and a handful of games of other teams. As a life-long Pens fan, I of course often compared him to Letang, whom I always preferred. I was of the opinion that Letang's defensive abilities (acknowledging his glaring weaknesses) and physicality outweighed Karlsson's offensive abilities.

However, when he first became a Pen, and I was able to focus on him more individually on a regular basis. I finally got it. I think it took a few games to settle in a bit, but he was on another level with his offensive abilities. His puck movement, ability to push the puck up ice, and the way he can get the puck on net quickly from different angles far outweighed his occasional defensive gaff. I finally understood what everyone else was talking about over the years and it had me rethinking my preference for Letang a bit.

I don't know exactly when it happened, but sometime over the following weeks/months, everything started to change. The offence started to go away, but the defensive zone issues remained. As far as this season goes, I don't know what to think. It is a complete trainwreck.

I'm a long-time lurker here, so I'm well aware of the Fire Sully conversations. I think I feel like a lot of people do. We appreciate Mike, acknowledge that he is a good/great NHL hockey head coach, will forever love him for bringing us back-to-back cups, but it is time to move on for both parties. He's aware of the criticism, this can't be fun for him either. Whether the players have tuned him out or the system isn't working, it doesn't really matter. They've changed GMs, turned the roster over several times, and they want to keep the core if possible (that's another discussion).

Problem is, the core wants him here and FSG wants him here. IMO, I think Dubas is kind of caught in the middle. Deep down he wants to try a new coaching staff, but the consequences might not be worth it (possibly getting fired or having Sid or others demand a trade and the fans/team rebelling a bit). Or he could really want Sully to stay here and rebuild his future team.

Either way, as long as Sully is here, Karlsson is the biggest elephant in the room for me. His contract combined with his abilities in this system are crippling this team. Sure, there are plenty of other issues, but they'll survive with Shea/St. Ivany/Ludvig/[insert AHL prospect here] for the time being. Maybe they play better tighter defensively, and they have a little more success. Or, they still suck and we keep heading towards a higher draft pick. But you still have $5M in cap space to improve the roster if you want, plus Eller's cap space.

All that said, if Sully were to go, I'd probably rather give Karlsson another shot with a new coaching staff, see how things play out, and maybe revisit a trade at the deadline or off season.

The fact that we'd get a 2nd RP and prospect in return, eat $5M, gain $5M in cap, easy call for me.

Cheers!

Nice first post long-time lurker! Welcome! I really struggle to believe Dubas doesn't have full control, after what he went through with Toronto and Shanahan. If Dubas truly doesn't have full autonomy to fire Sullivan...wow, I can't believe he took this job.

I'm starting to see small hints of the media questioning Dubas on a larger level. Remember, he's not only the GM, he's the President of Hockey Operations. As the GM, he had a lot of Hextall trash to clean up, he's made a few good moves along the way (Eller, Nedeljkovic, Brunicke, Guentzel trade). As the POHO, the team has had two bad seasons, and at the moment they are actually on pace to be worse than last year. I think that is okay IF that is what the team plans to do...rebuild. They keep saying they are not rebuilding. They are stuck in limbo and attendance is dropping. They are delaying the rebuild for the sake of trying to compete with Crosby, but they aren't competing...we are just there. It's time to move full rebuild.

[Puck-Lurker]

If the plan is to keep Sully here for the rest of the season (at a minimum), then I say Karlsson all day, take it and run.

You eat $5M for the next two years, which sucks, but you also gain $5M in cap space for those two years. Rip the band aid off and move on.

Regarding EK himself, well, I'm kind of all over the board with him. I wasn't crazy about the idea of bringing him in here, but I get what Dubas was trying to do. The team needed a shake-up, and the fact that he was able to get rid of some of those bad contracts, I was okay with the deal at the time. I figured maybe he'd be able to elevate our scoring from the back end enough to help compensate for our aging core. Either way, it was going to be interesting. Definitely made me want to tune in.

Prior to him becoming a Penguin, I appreciated that he was a talented player and all, but never really bought into the hype. To be fair, I mostly only watch the Pens closely during the regular season, only catching highlights and a handful of games of other teams. As a life-long Pens fan, I of course often compared him to Letang, whom I always preferred. I was of the opinion that Letang's defensive abilities (acknowledging his glaring weaknesses) and physicality outweighed Karlsson's offensive abilities.

However, when he first became a Pen, and I was able to focus on him more individually on a regular basis. I finally got it. I think it took a few games to settle in a bit, but he was on another level with his offensive abilities. His puck movement, ability to push the puck up ice, and the way he can get the puck on net quickly from different angles far outweighed his occasional defensive gaff. I finally understood what everyone else was talking about over the years and it had me rethinking my preference for Letang a bit.

I don't know exactly when it happened, but sometime over the following weeks/months, everything started to change. The offence started to go away, but the defensive zone issues remained. As far as this season goes, I don't know what to think. It is a complete trainwreck.

I'm a long-time lurker here, so I'm well aware of the Fire Sully conversations. I think I feel like a lot of people do. We appreciate Mike, acknowledge that he is a good/great NHL hockey head coach, will forever love him for bringing us back-to-back cups, but it is time to move on for both parties. He's aware of the criticism, this can't be fun for him either. Whether the players have tuned him out or the system isn't working, it doesn't really matter. They've changed GMs, turned the roster over several times, and they want to keep the core if possible (that's another discussion).

Problem is, the core wants him here and FSG wants him here. IMO, I think Dubas is kind of caught in the middle. Deep down he wants to try a new coaching staff, but the consequences might not be worth it (possibly getting fired or having Sid or others demand a trade and the fans/team rebelling a bit). Or he could really want Sully to stay here and rebuild his future team.

Either way, as long as Sully is here, Karlsson is the biggest elephant in the room for me. His contract combined with his abilities in this system are crippling this team. Sure, there are plenty of other issues, but they'll survive with Shea/St. Ivany/Ludvig/[insert AHL prospect here] for the time being. Maybe they play better tighter defensively, and they have a little more success. Or, they still suck and we keep heading towards a higher draft pick. But you still have $5M in cap space to improve the roster if you want, plus Eller's cap space.

All that said, if Sully were to go, I'd probably rather give Karlsson another shot with a new coaching staff, see how things play out, and maybe revisit a trade at the deadline or off season.

The fact that we'd get a 2nd RP and prospect in return, eat $5M, gain $5M in cap, easy call for me.

Cheers!

Welcome aboard!


I think if you have a different coach with a different 'system', you see better defence. Even from these guys.

Though Ludvig wouldn't be part of a post-Karlsson future. We'd have to trade with Colorado to reobtain him first. Or they'd have to waive him (currently carrying 8 defencemen; they also have Poolman on LTIR). I don't really see either happening this season.

Instead you're looking at promotions for Pickering (may happen anyway, Grzelcyk is looking out of place) and Aho if Karlsson is traded. Depth behind that... Belliveau and Hollowell. That'd make me think twice about trading EK -- but I'm not the GM so I don't have to. An early second rounder plus B level prospect at 50% retained, I'd kick the tyres on that.

[EndO FanEra]

I would move Karlsson,but not with that retention, 50%?!

3M retention max! I think thats reasonable..

Btw. I'm not that sure about core and Sully love, I think they would be fine with fresh voice, ideas, system..

I agree, 5M is rough and I wouldn't really want to retain that much. But for a 2nd, prospect, and the cap space, I think I would be okay with it.

Fair enough on the core and Sully comment, and I hope you're right. I guess I'm basing that mostly off of Sid's remarks within the last year or so about never wanting to play for another coach. Maybe that was just Sid saying the right things, but I remember thinking he was sincere about that at the time for some reason.

With the way things have gone so far this season, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of players are rethinking things.

[EndO FanEra]

I'm a long-time lurker here…

Welcome to the board!

Thanks!

[EndO FanEra]

If the plan is to keep Sully here for the rest of the season (at a minimum), then I say Karlsson all day, take it and run.

You eat $5M for the next two years, which sucks, but you also gain $5M in cap space for those two years. Rip the band aid off and move on.

Regarding EK himself, well, I'm kind of all over the board with him. I wasn't crazy about the idea of bringing him in here, but I get what Dubas was trying to do. The team needed a shake-up, and the fact that he was able to get rid of some of those bad contracts, I was okay with the deal at the time. I figured maybe he'd be able to elevate our scoring from the back end enough to help compensate for our aging core. Either way, it was going to be interesting. Definitely made me want to tune in.

Prior to him becoming a Penguin, I appreciated that he was a talented player and all, but never really bought into the hype. To be fair, I mostly only watch the Pens closely during the regular season, only catching highlights and a handful of games of other teams. As a life-long Pens fan, I of course often compared him to Letang, whom I always preferred. I was of the opinion that Letang's defensive abilities (acknowledging his glaring weaknesses) and physicality outweighed Karlsson's offensive abilities.

However, when he first became a Pen, and I was able to focus on him more individually on a regular basis. I finally got it. I think it took a few games to settle in a bit, but he was on another level with his offensive abilities. His puck movement, ability to push the puck up ice, and the way he can get the puck on net quickly from different angles far outweighed his occasional defensive gaff. I finally understood what everyone else was talking about over the years and it had me rethinking my preference for Letang a bit.

I don't know exactly when it happened, but sometime over the following weeks/months, everything started to change. The offence started to go away, but the defensive zone issues remained. As far as this season goes, I don't know what to think. It is a complete trainwreck.

I'm a long-time lurker here, so I'm well aware of the Fire Sully conversations. I think I feel like a lot of people do. We appreciate Mike, acknowledge that he is a good/great NHL hockey head coach, will forever love him for bringing us back-to-back cups, but it is time to move on for both parties. He's aware of the criticism, this can't be fun for him either. Whether the players have tuned him out or the system isn't working, it doesn't really matter. They've changed GMs, turned the roster over several times, and they want to keep the core if possible (that's another discussion).

Problem is, the core wants him here and FSG wants him here. IMO, I think Dubas is kind of caught in the middle. Deep down he wants to try a new coaching staff, but the consequences might not be worth it (possibly getting fired or having Sid or others demand a trade and the fans/team rebelling a bit). Or he could really want Sully to stay here and rebuild his future team.

Either way, as long as Sully is here, Karlsson is the biggest elephant in the room for me. His contract combined with his abilities in this system are crippling this team. Sure, there are plenty of other issues, but they'll survive with Shea/St. Ivany/Ludvig/[insert AHL prospect here] for the time being. Maybe they play better tighter defensively, and they have a little more success. Or, they still suck and we keep heading towards a higher draft pick. But you still have $5M in cap space to improve the roster if you want, plus Eller's cap space.

All that said, if Sully were to go, I'd probably rather give Karlsson another shot with a new coaching staff, see how things play out, and maybe revisit a trade at the deadline or off season.

The fact that we'd get a 2nd RP and prospect in return, eat $5M, gain $5M in cap, easy call for me.

Cheers!

Nice first post long-time lurker! Welcome! I really struggle to believe Dubas doesn't have full control, after what he went through with Toronto and Shanahan. If Dubas truly doesn't have full autonomy to fire Sullivan...wow, I can't believe he took this job.

I'm starting to see small hints of the media questioning Dubas on a larger level. Remember, he's not only the GM, he's the President of Hockey Operations. As the GM, he had a lot of Hextall trash to clean up, he's made a few good moves along the way (Eller, Nedeljkovic, Brunicke, Guentzel trade). As the POHO, the team has had two bad seasons, and at the moment they are actually on pace to be worse than last year. I think that is okay IF that is what the team plans to do...rebuild. They keep saying they are not rebuilding. They are stuck in limbo and attendance is dropping. They are delaying the rebuild for the sake of trying to compete with Crosby, but they aren't competing...we are just there. It's time to move full rebuild.

Thanks!

Well, if you're right (and I do respect your opinion when it comes to the Pens), then I've been giving Dubas more credit than I should be.

I have been critical of him, but not so much for keeping Sully around. I guess it just seems so obvious that it needs to happen, that I have a hard time believing that he doesn't see it too. And if he does see it, what is stopping him from making the move?

I'm sure he has his reasons, it would be interesting to know the real truth.

[EndO FanEra]

If the plan is to keep Sully here for the rest of the season (at a minimum), then I say Karlsson all day, take it and run.

You eat $5M for the next two years, which sucks, but you also gain $5M in cap space for those two years. Rip the band aid off and move on.

Regarding EK himself, well, I'm kind of all over the board with him. I wasn't crazy about the idea of bringing him in here, but I get what Dubas was trying to do. The team needed a shake-up, and the fact that he was able to get rid of some of those bad contracts, I was okay with the deal at the time. I figured maybe he'd be able to elevate our scoring from the back end enough to help compensate for our aging core. Either way, it was going to be interesting. Definitely made me want to tune in.

Prior to him becoming a Penguin, I appreciated that he was a talented player and all, but never really bought into the hype. To be fair, I mostly only watch the Pens closely during the regular season, only catching highlights and a handful of games of other teams. As a life-long Pens fan, I of course often compared him to Letang, whom I always preferred. I was of the opinion that Letang's defensive abilities (acknowledging his glaring weaknesses) and physicality outweighed Karlsson's offensive abilities.

However, when he first became a Pen, and I was able to focus on him more individually on a regular basis. I finally got it. I think it took a few games to settle in a bit, but he was on another level with his offensive abilities. His puck movement, ability to push the puck up ice, and the way he can get the puck on net quickly from different angles far outweighed his occasional defensive gaff. I finally understood what everyone else was talking about over the years and it had me rethinking my preference for Letang a bit.

I don't know exactly when it happened, but sometime over the following weeks/months, everything started to change. The offence started to go away, but the defensive zone issues remained. As far as this season goes, I don't know what to think. It is a complete trainwreck.

I'm a long-time lurker here, so I'm well aware of the Fire Sully conversations. I think I feel like a lot of people do. We appreciate Mike, acknowledge that he is a good/great NHL hockey head coach, will forever love him for bringing us back-to-back cups, but it is time to move on for both parties. He's aware of the criticism, this can't be fun for him either. Whether the players have tuned him out or the system isn't working, it doesn't really matter. They've changed GMs, turned the roster over several times, and they want to keep the core if possible (that's another discussion).

Problem is, the core wants him here and FSG wants him here. IMO, I think Dubas is kind of caught in the middle. Deep down he wants to try a new coaching staff, but the consequences might not be worth it (possibly getting fired or having Sid or others demand a trade and the fans/team rebelling a bit). Or he could really want Sully to stay here and rebuild his future team.

Either way, as long as Sully is here, Karlsson is the biggest elephant in the room for me. His contract combined with his abilities in this system are crippling this team. Sure, there are plenty of other issues, but they'll survive with Shea/St. Ivany/Ludvig/[insert AHL prospect here] for the time being. Maybe they play better tighter defensively, and they have a little more success. Or, they still suck and we keep heading towards a higher draft pick. But you still have $5M in cap space to improve the roster if you want, plus Eller's cap space.

All that said, if Sully were to go, I'd probably rather give Karlsson another shot with a new coaching staff, see how things play out, and maybe revisit a trade at the deadline or off season.

The fact that we'd get a 2nd RP and prospect in return, eat $5M, gain $5M in cap, easy call for me.

Cheers!

Welcome aboard!


I think if you have a different coach with a different 'system', you see better defence. Even from these guys.

Though Ludvig wouldn't be part of a post-Karlsson future. We'd have to trade with Colorado to reobtain him first. Or they'd have to waive him (currently carrying 8 defencemen; they also have Poolman on LTIR). I don't really see either happening this season.

Instead you're looking at promotions for Pickering (may happen anyway, Grzelcyk is looking out of place) and Aho if Karlsson is traded. Depth behind that... Belliveau and Hollowell. That'd make me think twice about trading EK -- but I'm not the GM so I don't have to. An early second rounder plus B level prospect at 50% retained, I'd kick the tyres on that.

Thanks!

Point taken on the hole in the defense. I know it's easier said than done, but I feel we should be able to pick up a middle paring Dman, either while trading off our next victim (or releasing them from captivity depending on how you look at it) or by using one of the picks we've been stockpiling. We'd have plenty of cap space.