Kingerski

[yinzer69]

Does anyone read or listen to his post game videos? He is so tired of the "sullivan hates young players" narrative and "when r we going to fire Sullivan" question.

He has repeatedly debunked the myth of Sullivan hating young players but like many people on this board many fans continue to "believe" in that narrative. Many people on this board need to listen to Kingerski, he makes a ton of sense. Yohe and him are the only two logical/level headed Penguin reporters in town.

[Admin]

Welcome to the board, Dan!

[Southern Fan]

Maybe he could expand on the reasons why young guys don’t get minutes. Because in the absence of an explanation, the fallback is the current narrative.

[FLPensFan]

Kingerski is very hit or miss. He can bring up some really good points, and at other times, he's so stuck in his own viewpoint that he can't see he's wrong with a mountain of evidence in front of him.

On the Sullivan hating young players topic, I'd say the truth lies somewhere in between. It's not as bad as we as fans will sometimes make it out to be, but, Sullivan still makes plenty of questionable decisions when handling young players.

---There are too many times where a young player makes a mistake (bad play, turnover, missed assignment, penalty) where Sullivan staples the guy to the bench the rest of the game, significantly drops their ice time, or completely removes them from the lineup. Yet, a vet like Carter or Acciari make those same mistakes with no repercussions.

---There are multiple instances over the years where a young player is playing well, but Sullivan cuts ice time or removes a player from the lineup. Puustinen is the perfect example I have discussed before. Last year, he got in one game, played well, got an assist...boom, out of the lineup. This year...first 8 games he played he had 6 points...then Sullivan started cutting his ice time. 6 of those first 8 games he was above 14 minutes TOI. In his next 13 games, he had more than 10 minutes TOI only 3 times, and had only 2 points in that span. He was scratched for a game, and since that time, he's played 22 games and only once been under 10 minutes TOI. He has 10 points in those 22 games. It was incredibly odd for Sullivan to cut Puustinen's ice time after showing the success he did, and the data from this season shows he needs somewhere in that 12-14 minute TOI per game to be effective. Puustinen has 4 points in 11 games with under 10 minutes TOI. He has 16 points in 33 games when he plays over 10 minutes TOI.

--Puljujarvi had 2 goals in his last 4 games going into last night. He played a whopping 4:57 TOI total. He managed an assist during that time. Puljujarvi has been very strong defensively when not saddled with someone like Carter. He plays with energy, he throws the body. I'm not sure what Sullivan ISN'T seeing out of him to be playing him so little.

--I think the narrative with young players not getting a chance is more up front at forward than it is on the backend. Shea, St. Ivany, Ludvig, POJ have all been given a chance this year on the backend. The only recent player not to get much of a chance on defense was Ty Smith and, um, he wasn't good and didn't likely deserve a chance.

I could go back further seasons, but....I don't want to spend time doing that. There is definitely a questionable usage narrative with some of these young guys, and I would love to see the data the Penguins use to make those evaluations.

[largegarlic]

Kingerski is very hit or miss. He can bring up some really good points, and at other times, he's so stuck in his own viewpoint that he can't see he's wrong with a mountain of evidence in front of him.

On the Sullivan hating young players topic, I'd say the truth lies somewhere in between. It's not as bad as we as fans will sometimes make it out to be, but, Sullivan still makes plenty of questionable decisions when handling young players.

---There are too many times where a young player makes a mistake (bad play, turnover, missed assignment, penalty) where Sullivan staples the guy to the bench the rest of the game, significantly drops their ice time, or completely removes them from the lineup. Yet, a vet like Carter or Acciari make those same mistakes with no repercussions.

---There are multiple instances over the years where a young player is playing well, but Sullivan cuts ice time or removes a player from the lineup. Puustinen is the perfect example I have discussed before. Last year, he got in one game, played well, got an assist...boom, out of the lineup. This year...first 8 games he played he had 6 points...then Sullivan started cutting his ice time. 6 of those first 8 games he was above 14 minutes TOI. In his next 13 games, he had more than 10 minutes TOI only 3 times, and had only 2 points in that span. He was scratched for a game, and since that time, he's played 22 games and only once been under 10 minutes TOI. He has 10 points in those 22 games. It was incredibly odd for Sullivan to cut Puustinen's ice time after showing the success he did, and the data from this season shows he needs somewhere in that 12-14 minute TOI per game to be effective. Puustinen has 4 points in 11 games with under 10 minutes TOI. He has 16 points in 33 games when he plays over 10 minutes TOI.

--Puljujarvi had 2 goals in his last 4 games going into last night. He played a whopping 4:57 TOI total. He managed an assist during that time. Puljujarvi has been very strong defensively when not saddled with someone like Carter. He plays with energy, he throws the body. I'm not sure what Sullivan ISN'T seeing out of him to be playing him so little.

--I think the narrative with young players not getting a chance is more up front at forward than it is on the backend. Shea, St. Ivany, Ludvig, POJ have all been given a chance this year on the backend. The only recent player not to get much of a chance on defense was Ty Smith and, um, he wasn't good and didn't likely deserve a chance.

I could go back further seasons, but....I don't want to spend time doing that. There is definitely a questionable usage narrative with some of these young guys, and I would love to see the data the Penguins use to make those evaluations.

That's how I see it too. The issue with Sullivan and young guys is probably not as bad as the most vocal anti-Sullivan voices would have it, but it's not nothing either. I suspect that there's some young guys who don't get much of a chance because they've shown in practice/their time in WBS that they're just not good enough (e.g., Ty Smith). Interestingly, Steigy, who can't be accused of being super pessimistic about any Pens' player, said last week on Madden's show that he thinks Poulin belongs in this category--he hasn't gotten much of a shot because he's just not an NHL player.

But on the other hand, there's the cases you mention, as well as youngish guys like Sprong, Lafferty, and Nylander who go on to look good with other teams after not getting many minutes with the Pens when mediocre vets did.

Going back to the Madden/Steigy conversation, they both agreed that if Sullivan is kept as coach (and Dubas gives every indication this is what will happen), Dubas needs to take the choice away from Sullivan and not sign guys like Nieto, Harkins, Carter, etc., and force Sullivan to play younger guys.

[Three Stars]

Kingerski is very hit or miss. He can bring up some really good points, and at other times, he's so stuck in his own viewpoint that he can't see he's wrong with a mountain of evidence in front of him.

He’d fit right in here. Anyone want to send an invitation?

[yinzer69]

there are literally people on this board who would have Poulin and Puljujarvi playing 2nd line minutes. Then they will scream when they realize what most logical people know....those guys SUCK.

[FLPensFan]

there are literally people on this board who would have Poulin and Puljujarvi playing 2nd line minutes. Then they will scream when they realize what most logical people know....those guys SUCK.

So, we're certain Sam Poulin sucks after 6 whole games at the NHL level? That's enough for you to determine he's no good? You aren't going to see what a guy is capable of in 3 games, playing him 9 minutes a night. Is Poulin a top 6 level talent? Absolutely not. Does he show potential to be a solid 3rd/4th line guy? Yeah, he does.

Tell me why Puljujarvi sucks? I want to hear your reasoning why he sucks before I give my reasoning of why he doesn't.

You aren't going to get an accurate assessment of a player in 3-5 games, playing less than 10 minutes a night. Give Sidney Crosby 2-3 shifts a period and see how impactful he is. 10-15 games with a fair amount of ice time is the minimum needed, IMO, to get a good assessment where a player is.

And in terms of Kingerski, his whole argument is that the team already knows what they have in these players. They see them day in and day out. They aren't going to come to the NHL level to develop. He completely misses the point. You have guys that are performing well at the AHL level. It isn't bringing them up to "develop them," it's bringing them up to see how they perform and compete against the next level of competition. If a guy is performing well at the AHL, the natural progression should be getting a look at that next level...unless he has a glaring weakness...like the guy simply cannot skate well enough to keep up in the NHL, or he's severely undersized, etc.

Nobody the Penguins have in WBS right now is a game-breaker. There are no top 4 d-men, no top-6 forwards...but if all the prospects there are so bad that they cannot earn a shot at the NHL level to unseat an expensive veteran....that says much more about the teams drafting and development than it does about a player's shortcomings.

[yinzer69]

"But on the other hand, there's the cases you mention, as well as youngish guys like Sprong, Lafferty, and Nylander who go on to look good with other teams after not getting many minutes with the Pens when mediocre vets did."

I think some of this is just guys needing a change of scenery, that happens from time to time. Team/culture/city just isn't a good fit for the player. The guy who I think we might of mishandled was Lafferty.
Sprong has bounced around a lot, kind of a 1 trick pony scoring 15-20 goals but not doing much else for you.
Nylander- Lets pump the brakes on him, its a small sample and a very bad team that is playing in garbage time right now. Lets see how he looks next year. certainly didn't show a ton in what I would say was limited chances.
Lafferty- missed the boat here obviously, he would look great on a 3rd or 4th line.

Remember too we are always in "win now" mode so it is more difficult to give these tweener young guys a legit shot with some patience.

[Pitts]

there are literally people on this board who would have Poulin and Puljujarvi playing 2nd line minutes. Then they will scream when they realize what most logical people know....those guys SUCK.

Also, the argument could be made that maybe Puustinen has been handled correctly. Perhaps he was showing something coached didn't like - cut his time, sit him a few - message received. He's been much better since and actually looks like a legit NHL player now.

DOC hasn't really ever had his ice time cut and bounces all over the line up - only recently seems to have acquired a regular scoring ability - I thought young guys never got chances?

Gruden seems to be playing pretty regularly.

I do agree, however, that they need to stop signing useless veteran depth players for the bottom 2 lines. They either need better quality wingers there, or let some of our young guns play.

[Pitts]

Tell me why Puljujarvi sucks? I want to hear your reasoning why he sucks before I give my reasoning of why he doesn't.

It's not that he "sucks." but when he was with Edmonton, he had plenty of time to become an NHL regular. He didn't. Carolina gave him another chance - again - nothing. I know he had the surgeries, maybe that was a factor last year. But, he had plenty of time to grab his role and never did. What makes you think he will all of the sudden now?

That player that showed up last week against Carolina - where did he go? Maybe the disappearing act is why his ice time has been cut?

Nobody the Penguins have in WBS right now is a game-breaker. There are no top 4 d-men, no top-6 forwards...but if all the prospects there are so bad that they cannot earn a shot at the NHL level to unseat an expensive veteran....that says much more about the teams drafting and development than it does about a player's shortcomings.

THIS is the crux of the issue. The Pens SUCK at drafting and development. Period. That department is what needs the overhaul.

[yinzer69]

Puljujarvi doesn't suck, he is a bottom 6 player, most likely a 4th liner, what role is he playing right now? 4th liner. To what Pitts says, he has had ample chances especially with the Oilers with good players and he really hasn't done much. After double hip surgery he is lucky he got a 2 year contract and a chance. I fail to see a problem with his usage here.

[Puck-Lurker]

"But on the other hand, there's the cases you mention, as well as youngish guys like Sprong, Lafferty, and Nylander who go on to look good with other teams after not getting many minutes with the Pens when mediocre vets did."

I think some of this is just guys needing a change of scenery, that happens from time to time. Team/culture/city just isn't a good fit for the player. The guy who I think we might of mishandled was Lafferty.
Sprong has bounced around a lot, kind of a 1 trick pony scoring 15-20 goals but not doing much else for you.
Nylander- Lets pump the brakes on him, its a small sample and a very bad team that is playing in garbage time right now. Lets see how he looks next year. certainly didn't show a ton in what I would say was limited chances.
Lafferty- missed the boat here obviously, he would look great on a 3rd or 4th line.

Remember too we are always in "win now" mode so it is more difficult to give these tweener young guys a legit shot with some patience.

That's still a very useful trick. We don't have many guys that can score 15 goals. Eller and DOC can get there this season, Rakell and Smith probably not. Guentzel was traded. Only Crosby, Malkin and Rust are >15G. Sprong is a very niche kind of forward, I agree and 2M is a lot for a cap strapped team, probably too much. Still would've liked to have added those 15 goals. We've got a boat load full of defensively responsible nobodies that don't score.

Calling up Puustinen a hell of a lot earlier would've been fine too instead of Sprong. Just saying

[yinzer69]

"But on the other hand, there's the cases you mention, as well as youngish guys like Sprong, Lafferty, and Nylander who go on to look good with other teams after not getting many minutes with the Pens when mediocre vets did."

I think some of this is just guys needing a change of scenery, that happens from time to time. Team/culture/city just isn't a good fit for the player. The guy who I think we might of mishandled was Lafferty.
Sprong has bounced around a lot, kind of a 1 trick pony scoring 15-20 goals but not doing much else for you.
Nylander- Lets pump the brakes on him, its a small sample and a very bad team that is playing in garbage time right now. Lets see how he looks next year. certainly didn't show a ton in what I would say was limited chances.
Lafferty- missed the boat here obviously, he would look great on a 3rd or 4th line.

Remember too we are always in "win now" mode so it is more difficult to give these tweener young guys a legit shot with some patience.

That's still a very useful trick. We don't have many guys that can score 15 goals. Eller and DOC can get there this season, Rakell and Smith probably not. Guentzel was traded. Only Crosby, Malkin and Rust are >15G. Sprong is a very niche kind of forward, I agree and 2M is a lot for a cap strapped team, probably too much. Still would've liked to have added those 15 goals. We've got a boat load full of defensively responsible nobodies that don't score.

Calling up Puustinen a hell of a lot earlier would've been fine too instead of Sprong. Just saying

Remember Spong was traded for Pettersson. Who would you rather have??

Puustinen was clearly not ready, it was not until after his 2nd call up when it seems to click and now he looks like a true NHL player. Puustinen has been handled pretty well IMO.

[Pitts]

"But on the other hand, there's the cases you mention, as well as youngish guys like Sprong, Lafferty, and Nylander who go on to look good with other teams after not getting many minutes with the Pens when mediocre vets did."

I think some of this is just guys needing a change of scenery, that happens from time to time. Team/culture/city just isn't a good fit for the player. The guy who I think we might of mishandled was Lafferty.
Sprong has bounced around a lot, kind of a 1 trick pony scoring 15-20 goals but not doing much else for you.
Nylander- Lets pump the brakes on him, its a small sample and a very bad team that is playing in garbage time right now. Lets see how he looks next year. certainly didn't show a ton in what I would say was limited chances.
Lafferty- missed the boat here obviously, he would look great on a 3rd or 4th line.

Remember too we are always in "win now" mode so it is more difficult to give these tweener young guys a legit shot with some patience.

That's still a very useful trick. We don't have many guys that can score 15 goals. Eller and DOC can get there this season, Rakell and Smith probably not. Guentzel was traded. Only Crosby, Malkin and Rust are >15G. Sprong is a very niche kind of forward, I agree and 2M is a lot for a cap strapped team, probably too much. Still would've liked to have added those 15 goals. We've got a boat load full of defensively responsible nobodies that don't score.

Calling up Puustinen a hell of a lot earlier would've been fine too instead of Sprong. Just saying

If we had a powerplay that worked - you wouldn't need to be looking for those 15 goals.

[Puck-Lurker]

"But on the other hand, there's the cases you mention, as well as youngish guys like Sprong, Lafferty, and Nylander who go on to look good with other teams after not getting many minutes with the Pens when mediocre vets did."

I think some of this is just guys needing a change of scenery, that happens from time to time. Team/culture/city just isn't a good fit for the player. The guy who I think we might of mishandled was Lafferty.
Sprong has bounced around a lot, kind of a 1 trick pony scoring 15-20 goals but not doing much else for you.
Nylander- Lets pump the brakes on him, its a small sample and a very bad team that is playing in garbage time right now. Lets see how he looks next year. certainly didn't show a ton in what I would say was limited chances.
Lafferty- missed the boat here obviously, he would look great on a 3rd or 4th line.

Remember too we are always in "win now" mode so it is more difficult to give these tweener young guys a legit shot with some patience.

That's still a very useful trick. We don't have many guys that can score 15 goals. Eller and DOC can get there this season, Rakell and Smith probably not. Guentzel was traded. Only Crosby, Malkin and Rust are >15G. Sprong is a very niche kind of forward, I agree and 2M is a lot for a cap strapped team, probably too much. Still would've liked to have added those 15 goals. We've got a boat load full of defensively responsible nobodies that don't score.

Calling up Puustinen a hell of a lot earlier would've been fine too instead of Sprong. Just saying

If we had a powerplay that worked - you wouldn't need to be looking for those 15 goals.

Ain't that the truth!

[Pruezy11881]

Puljujarvi doesn't suck, he is a bottom 6 player, most likely a 4th liner, what role is he playing right now? 4th liner. To what Pitts says, he has had ample chances especially with the Oilers with good players and he really hasn't done much. After double hip surgery he is lucky he got a 2 year contract and a chance. I fail to see a problem with his usage here.

I really believe that you could argue that he shouldn't have been playing in the NHL as early as he did. Edmonton has done a real bang up job of drafting high and feeling obligated to play those players, though they shouldn't have. He wasn't ready, and when he didn't produce how they felt he should given his #4 overall he got stuffed in the dog house and bounced between AHL and NHL. Now for the Canes, maybe it was the injuries maybe it wasn't. But he certainly fills a void that is missing on this team and shouldn't be sitting behind the likes of Carter, Harkins, etc.

[yinzer69]

there are literally people on this board who would have Poulin and Puljujarvi playing 2nd line minutes. Then they will scream when they realize what most logical people know....those guys SUCK.

So, we're certain Sam Poulin sucks after 6 whole games at the NHL level? That's enough for you to determine he's no good? You aren't going to see what a guy is capable of in 3 games, playing him 9 minutes a night. Is Poulin a top 6 level talent? Absolutely not. Does he show potential to be a solid 3rd/4th line guy? Yeah, he does.

Tell me why Puljujarvi sucks? I want to hear your reasoning why he sucks before I give my reasoning of why he doesn't.

You aren't going to get an accurate assessment of a player in 3-5 games, playing less than 10 minutes a night. Give Sidney Crosby 2-3 shifts a period and see how impactful he is. 10-15 games with a fair amount of ice time is the minimum needed, IMO, to get a good assessment where a player is.

And in terms of Kingerski, his whole argument is that the team already knows what they have in these players. They see them day in and day out. They aren't going to come to the NHL level to develop. He completely misses the point. You have guys that are performing well at the AHL level. It isn't bringing them up to "develop them," it's bringing them up to see how they perform and compete against the next level of competition. If a guy is performing well at the AHL, the natural progression should be getting a look at that next level...unless he has a glaring weakness...like the guy simply cannot skate well enough to keep up in the NHL, or he's severely undersized, etc.

Nobody the Penguins have in WBS right now is a game-breaker. There are no top 4 d-men, no top-6 forwards...but if all the prospects there are so bad that they cannot earn a shot at the NHL level to unseat an expensive veteran....that says much more about the teams drafting and development than it does about a player's shortcomings.

I posted about Puljujarvi above....

Poulin wouldn't have even been called up if Ponomarev was healthy. It is pretty clear to me they don't view Poulin very highly. As a kid, if you get 7 minutes of ice time you better find a way to get noticed or make an impact. Mike Rupp was talking about that during the broadcast last game. Young players need to EARN their team, very few NHL teams just hand regular ice team to young players especially ones with a limited ceiling. Poulin's skating isn't up to par and I haven't even seen any glimpses of hope or "wow that was a good play/shift" in the small amount of ice time. The eye test works quite well.

I think I will trust a 20+ year vet of covering hockey at local and national level over some "know it all" message boarder. Obviously you are welcomed to your views/opinions but to lay it out like you know better is a little rich.

"Nobody the Penguins have in WBS right now is a game-breaker. There are no top 4 d-men, no top-6 forwards...but if all the prospects there are so bad that they cannot earn a shot at the NHL level to unseat an expensive veteran....that says much more about the teams drafting and development than it does about a player's shortcomings."

BINGO-the problem is in the drafting and development. This goes back to the 90s frankly. When you forced to sign Accari or claim Harkins when those roles should be filled from within, with young cheap guys.

[FLPensFan]

Puljujarvi doesn't suck, he is a bottom 6 player, most likely a 4th liner, what role is he playing right now? 4th liner. To what Pitts says, he has had ample chances especially with the Oilers with good players and he really hasn't done much. After double hip surgery he is lucky he got a 2 year contract and a chance. I fail to see a problem with his usage here.

I guess I just have a different opinion of "sucks." Puljujarvi is not going to be a top 6 player, but I think he is a very good, cheap bottom 6 option for this team. I think he possesses the skill that, if injuries arise and he needs to play in the top 6 for half a dozen games, he can do that...but he's not going to produce a 20 goal season for us.

When he's on the ice, he's using the body, and he's a very strong forechecker. His underlying numbers (corsi/shots/chances/xGoals) are all on the right side of 50%. 3 goals in 17 games works out to 14.5 goals over 82 games. I think he can improve there a little bit more and potentially be a 15-18 goal 3rd liner for this team. I'll add in that, he's been playing a good amount of games on LW...which is good for versatility and getting in the lineup, but I've not known him to play LW anywhere else in his career. I don't think they'll be getting the most out of Puljujarvi on a 4th line. I think he'll offer more if you give him the added ice time and play him at 3RW. I also think with his strong forechecking, his size, and his reach that he should be looked at as a PKer next season.

You mentioned the other part of the issue, for me. Jeff Carter is 39 years old. Puljujarvi is 25, and was given a 2 year deal. If he was only signed for this season, I wouldn't be pressing for more opportunity for him. But they saw enough to give him 2 years. So why play a guy down the stretch who should be retiring this summer, over a guy who is 25 and you've signed for next year.

That's the type of questionable decision making Sullivan and Dubas make. Fans get ragged on all the time for their fanboi trade proposals, but then this team makes too many non-business decisions which I would equate to something similar. Carter's likely retiring...we gotta get him into every game because he might retire. We gotta keep Sid, Geno, and Letang...we gotta do this for the core. I'm not saying be cold and heartless to your players, but, lately, this team has been making too many feel good, non-business decisions over putting "the best team on the ice to win."

[yinzer69]

Jeff Carter is a highly respected veteran at the end of a long very success career, having a decent season for his role and age. He gets the benefit of the doubt from the coaches and gets a sweater. I would say most NHL teams do this kind of thing especially with a veteran the stature of Carter. I am not saying your wrong but I think that is just kinda how it works in the NHL. Frankly to me...playing Carter over Gruden or Poulin doesn't really matter.

[yinzer69]

Puljujarvi doesn't suck, he is a bottom 6 player, most likely a 4th liner, what role is he playing right now? 4th liner. To what Pitts says, he has had ample chances especially with the Oilers with good players and he really hasn't done much. After double hip surgery he is lucky he got a 2 year contract and a chance. I fail to see a problem with his usage here.

I guess I just have a different opinion of "sucks." Puljujarvi is not going to be a top 6 player, but I think he is a very good, cheap bottom 6 option for this team. I think he possesses the skill that, if injuries arise and he needs to play in the top 6 for half a dozen games, he can do that...but he's not going to produce a 20 goal season for us.

When he's on the ice, he's using the body, and he's a very strong forechecker. His underlying numbers (corsi/shots/chances/xGoals) are all on the right side of 50%. 3 goals in 17 games works out to 14.5 goals over 82 games. I think he can improve there a little bit more and potentially be a 15-18 goal 3rd liner for this team. I'll add in that, he's been playing a good amount of games on LW...which is good for versatility and getting in the lineup, but I've not known him to play LW anywhere else in his career. I don't think they'll be getting the most out of Puljujarvi on a 4th line. I think he'll offer more if you give him the added ice time and play him at 3RW. I also think with his strong forechecking, his size, and his reach that he should be looked at as a PKer next season.

You mentioned the other part of the issue, for me. Jeff Carter is 39 years old. Puljujarvi is 25, and was given a 2 year deal. If he was only signed for this season, I wouldn't be pressing for more opportunity for him. But they saw enough to give him 2 years. So why play a guy down the stretch who should be retiring this summer, over a guy who is 25 and you've signed for next year.

That's the type of questionable decision making Sullivan and Dubas make. Fans get ragged on all the time for their fanboi trade proposals, but then this team makes too many non-business decisions which I would equate to something similar. Carter's likely retiring...we gotta get him into every game because he might retire. We gotta keep Sid, Geno, and Letang...we gotta do this for the core. I'm not saying be cold and heartless to your players, but, lately, this team has been making too many feel good, non-business decisions over putting "the best team on the ice to win."

The core up until this season (mostly talking about Malkin, Letang has struggled lately but had been really good previously) has NOT been the problem. Revisionist history here. Keeping the core was the right decision, trading for Karlsson was the right decision. The problem is the supporting cast(bottom 6) and goaltending(not so much this year) over the last 5 seasons, NOT the core. Did anyone complain about the Rakell contract last year when he scored 28 goals??? No, lots of revisionist history here. Fans rag on Dubas for his offseason but at the start of training camp was anyone saying the additions of Reilly Smith, Graves and Accari were bad moves??? NO. Obviously they haven't worked out but the moves were very good overall. It is fair to criticize Dubas for other things...like the lack of scoring depth...yes.

[Pitts]

Jeff Carter is a highly respected veteran at the end of a long very success career, having a decent season for his role and age. He gets the benefit of the doubt from the coaches and gets a sweater. I would say most NHL teams do this kind of thing especially with a veteran the stature of Carter. I am not saying your wrong but I think that is just kinda how it works in the NHL. Frankly to me...playing Carter over Gruden or Poulin doesn't really matter.

Agreed. I saw a stats about one of the last games that Poulin was losing all his draws so Carter was sent in in the 3rd to take draws for him and won 100% of them. Carter has 8 games left. Let the man have his time.

Also to answer FLP - Carter plays over Poulin or Puju because the team is still trying to win, no matter what we fans think.

[KG]

I don't think a majority of the fans think that the kids in WBS are great players or anything, but they do play with energy, physicality and youthful exuberance.

This team has lacked all of those elements for years now. And when the 4th line played great against Carolina it jolted the team. Sid, Rust, even Sullivan all said they provided a spark.

Then Carter is back in, Gruden gets sent down, Poulin gets sent down and Puljujarvi plays 3 minutes last game. That's what frustrates fans.

Also, playing young players doesn't mean that you are tanking and not trying to win. Playing young players provides juice.

[yinzer69]

I don't think a majority of the fans think that the kids in WBS are great players or anything, but they do play with energy, physicality and youthful exuberance.

This team has lacked all of those elements for years now. And when the 4th line played great against Carolina it jolted the team. Sid, Rust, even Sullivan all said they provided a spark.

Then Carter is back in, Gruden gets sent down, Poulin gets sent down and Puljujarvi plays 3 minutes last game. That's what frustrates fans.

Also, playing young players doesn't mean that you are tanking and not trying to win. Playing young players provides juice.

so you would be happy playing Gruden and Poulin along with Puljujarvi on the 4th regularly? You be happy with maybe 10 or 12 goals a season for that entire line total. Puljujarvi might have half of that total. Yikes. That is a winning formula there. Bring on the Cup.

[FLPensFan]

I don't think a majority of the fans think that the kids in WBS are great players or anything, but they do play with energy, physicality and youthful exuberance.

This team has lacked all of those elements for years now. And when the 4th line played great against Carolina it jolted the team. Sid, Rust, even Sullivan all said they provided a spark.

Then Carter is back in, Gruden gets sent down, Poulin gets sent down and Puljujarvi plays 3 minutes last game. That's what frustrates fans.

Also, playing young players doesn't mean that you are tanking and not trying to win. Playing young players provides juice.

so you would be happy playing Gruden and Poulin along with Puljujarvi on the 4th regularly? You be happy with maybe 10 or 12 goals a season for that entire line total. Puljujarvi might have half of that total. Yikes. That is a winning formula there. Bring on the Cup.

Part of the problem too is that Sullivan has lost having any identity for his bottom 6. It's just a bunch of pieces thrown together. A few years ago, you knew that ZAR-Blueger-Tanev was an energy line and a very solid defensive line. Back in the Cup years, you knew when Kessel was on that line it was a scoring line, or way back when you had Kennedy-Staal-Cooke, you knew that line could score, play defense, and was very good at cycling the puck in the offensive zone.

I have no idea what Sullivan's intent is with the bottom 6, and that was a big disappointment with the moves made this offseason. He improved defense overall and the PK, but there's no offense, and no real role for either the 3rd or 4th line. They are both kind of defensive lines without much consistent scoring.

So, if you wanted to build an energy line...well, Gruden and Puljujarvi both skate, both hit, and both play well defensively, so that wouldn't be a horrible 2/3 of a line...if that's what you want their identity to be.