ISIS Crisis

[redwill]

I'm well aware of our own checkered past, but it bears zero relevance to the current situation. It's not because they are "brown", it's because of their religion and belief system. I don't know too many Jews in the 30s that were practicing or endorsing jihad.

American citizens are the most generous population on Earth,in terms of international giving and stewardship. I'm not going to feel guilt over the sins of our ancestors

The citizens of Jordan, Turkey, and Lebanon are caring for hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees and what are we doing? Throwing some bombs. Hurrah for the brave pilots! Not so much for "American citizens" in general.

But you said "American citizens are the most generous population on Earth,in terms of international giving and stewardship."

How so?

How many refugees of the Middle East wars are being cared for here? If legislation was introduced to bring them here, where do you think it would go?

Our "giving and stewardship" is through taxation which, frankly, most Americans would reject if it was transparently subjected to a vote.

[Tico Rick]

I'm well aware of our own checkered past, but it bears zero relevance to the current situation. It's not because they are "brown", it's because of their religion and belief system. I don't know too many Jews in the 30s that were practicing or endorsing jihad.

American citizens are the most generous population on Earth,in terms of international giving and stewardship. I'm not going to feel guilt over the sins of our ancestors

I may be missing something, shad, but you seem to be painting all Muslims with the same broad brush - that they are all either practicing terrorists or at least sympathetic to the terrorist cause. I think there are a lot of Muslims out there who share western values but are afraid to speak up because of the vocal and bloodthirsty minority, or are just too busy trying to survive.

This may sound whacko, but I believe one thing that has made the U.S. so great is the influx and intermixing of people and ideas from all over, people who want to be here and who have a lot to contribute. Crazy idea, I know.

[Avyran]

I mean, there's things like the World Giving Index that ranks the US as the most-giving country in the world...

Or there's the fact that Americans gave 335 billion to charity in 2013...

[redwill]

Only here can a thread about terrorists burning people alive and filming it get turned into how terrible all the people who post here are because we're Americans. If this is putting so much mental strain on you redwill, then go on the crusade! Empty out your bank accounts, make trips over there, smuggle out the refugees and put them up in your house as you suggested we all do! You'll be so much better than all your worthless fellow Americans then!

I'm asking why no Syrian refugees are being transported to the US while hundreds of thousands are being housed in these Middle Eastern countries which we are saying aren't doing enough.

The point I'm trying (and apparently failing) to make is that there are nations in the Middle East who are doing what they can, given the burden of the refugees. Sure, there's a lot more to it, like the fact that many of Jordan's people only suddenly got concerned about ISIL once a Muslim was killed. But it doesn't change the fact that they are spending huge amounts of dough caring for these Syrian refugees which we don't seem to give a f*** about other than in our news stories and occasionally on our message boards.

Of course it's complicated, but simply ask yourself what we in the US are really doing. Yeah, we're cheering when the air campaign diminishes ISIL's combat capability. Yeah, we're outraged over ISIL's ... outrages.

But in the end, we're only vaguely interested spectators. We pay our taxes to buy planes and bombs and politicians and eventually someone does something somewhere and we hope it turns out good for us. If it doesn't turn out good it doesn't really matter too much. Meh. Let that part of the world go down the toilet. Kill them all or whatever.

We still have our pleasant distractions which usually consists of cat videos and talking about how things really should be.

[redwill]

I mean, there's things like the World Giving Index that ranks the US as the most-giving country in the world...

Or there's the fact that Americans gave 335 billion to charity in 2013...

So Americans gave the most money? I'm sorry, but I don't know how you expect me to respond to that.

[Willie Kool]

But it doesn't change the fact that they are spending huge amounts of dough caring for these Syrian refugees

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/ ... ET20150203

The United States on Tuesday announced plans to increase annual aid to Jordan to $1 billion from $660 million to help it pay for the cost of housing refugees from Iraq and Syria and of fighting Islamic State militants.

[Avyran]

Our "giving and stewardship" is through taxation which, frankly, most Americans would reject if it was transparently subjected to a vote.

Just because we're not helping this particular situation... does not take away from the charity of common Americans. Do I lambast you for not giving a damn about the North Korean refugees sold into prostitution in China after fleeing the country... or worse, sent back to certain death, when there are organizations like LiNK and Crossing Borders (albeit a Christian organization) that make it easy to help and provide safe travel?

Or do I get mad at the Islamic world for not giving to help out Christians? Or, worse, Jews?

I'm just confused. You're asking what the US is doing... often, individual Americans're doing as much as the rest of the world is. Japan didn't give a damn about the situation until their hostage was taken & then beheaded. China, Australia, Brazil, Canada... where's the outrage over their involvement? I dunno why you're so outraged about it. (Edit: Also note that I'm not trying to be a jerk / snarky. I'm genuinely confused.)

[Willie Kool]

We still have our pleasant distractions which usually consists of cat videos and talking about how things really should be.

And Warz, if someone would start a game...

[Grunthy]

the USA admits many refugees every year redwill. So I'm not sure what you are trying to prove.

[Hockeynut!]

the USA admits many refugees every year redwill. So I'm not sure what you are trying to prove.

I think it's pretty clear what redwill's saying. Someone said the ME countries weren't doing enough and that they shouldn't expect the US to provide more help. Redwill brought up the fact that the ME countries are taking care of hundreds of thousands of refugees displaced by extremist/ISIS violence as proof that the ME countries are trying to handle the problem. Then someone took it be an insult to Murica and thing went downhill thereafter.

[Grunthy]

the USA admits many refugees every year redwill. So I'm not sure what you are trying to prove.

I think it's pretty clear what redwill's saying. Someone said the ME countries weren't doing enough and that they shouldn't expect the US to provide more help. Redwill brought up the fact that the ME countries are taking care of hundreds of thousands of refugees displaced by extremist/ISIS violence as proof that the ME countries are trying to handle the problem. Then someone took it be an insult to Murica and thing went downhill thereafter.

And I showed that the USA looks after tens of thousands of refugees also, while giving aid. Redwill was deliberately trying to make the USA look like it wasn't doing a lot, which is not true.

[tifosi77]

I'm well aware of our own checkered past, but it bears zero relevance to the current situation. It's not because they are "brown", it's because of their religion and belief system. I don't know too many Jews in the 30s that were practicing or endorsing jihad.

American citizens are the most generous population on Earth,in terms of international giving and stewardship. I'm not going to feel guilt over the sins of our ancestors

I may be missing something, shad, but you seem to be painting all Muslims with the same broad brush - that they are all either practicing terrorists or at least sympathetic to the terrorist cause. I think there are a lot of Muslims out there who share western values but are afraid to speak up because of the vocal and bloodthirsty minority, or are just too busy trying to survive.

This may sound whacko, but I believe one thing that has made the U.S. so great is the influx and intermixing of people and ideas from all over, people who want to be here and who have a lot to contribute. Crazy idea, I know.

This goes back to the Ben Affleck appearance on 'Real Time', when Bill Maher and Sam Harris were trying to explain that the views that the extremist groups hold dear aren't necessarily all that extreme in relation to the broader population of Muslims around the world. For example, just looking at younger Muslims (I think the age range was like 14-24 or thereabouts) living in Britain, nearly 40% of them believe apostates deserve death. 0% of them believe homosexuality is okay. (Zero-point-zero) Over 3/4 of them believed the Danish cartoonist should be prosecuted from drawing an image of Allah. (These polls were obviously conducted pre-Charlie Hebdo)

These are British Muslims, born and raised in the West.

The point is that we always take for granted that there is this magical 'moderate Muslim' out there who represents a huge chunk of the Islamic population of the world. But the more we learn about Islamic practices around the world, the more rare this moderate person becomes. Where you and I probably once thought that ISIL and their ilk represented a token fraction of a percentage of the world's Muslims, the reality that is coming to light is that they actually represent something closer to a 50-50 split when it comes to the beliefs espoused. Where the differences lie is in what people are willing to do to carry out their beliefs. But because great swaths of populations have a tip-the-hat relationship to the extremist wackos, those wackos are able to exist and even proliferate.

[redwill]

And I showed that the USA looks after tens of thousands of refugees also, while giving aid. Redwill was deliberately trying to make the USA look like it wasn't doing a lot, which is not true.

How many Syrian refugees has the US taken in? How does that compare to the burden on Jordan/Turkey/Lebanon? I mean, in terms of percentages of population, resources, etc.

The US is doing nothing more than a token in terms of taking care of Syrian/Yazidi/etc. refugees. It represents no burden on us. On you and me.

My larger point was that if it came to that, we'd be nowhere near it. These nations in the ME are doing more than we would ever be willing to do. Hell, we won't even take in a few thousand kids from Central America.

[Avyran]

redwill, are you arguing that the US should be taking in all of these refugees? Or just that it is unfair to be pointing fingers at the surrounding countries, when they are already doing a lot to support these refugees?

[Grunthy]

And I showed that the USA looks after tens of thousands of refugees also, while giving aid. Redwill was deliberately trying to make the USA look like it wasn't doing a lot, which is not true.

How many Syrian refugees has the US taken in? How does that compare to the burden on Jordan/Turkey/Lebanon? I mean, in terms of percentages of population, resources, etc.

The US is doing nothing more than a token in terms of taking care of Syrian/Yazidi/etc. refugees. It represents no burden on us. On you and me.

My larger point was that if it came to that, we'd be nowhere near it. These nations in the ME are doing more than we would ever be willing to do. Hell, we won't even take in a few thousand kids from Central America.

You cannot compare it in that sense. First of all it would be a logistical nightmare to bring in tens of thousands of refugees, and cost a whole lot more than just sending aid for those countries to take care of them. Which we are doing. Yes they are harboring the refugees, but I would guess we are the ones paying for almost all their supplies.

[redwill]

redwill, are you arguing that the US should be taking in all of these refugees? Or just that it is unfair to be pointing fingers at the surrounding countries, when they are already doing a lot to support these refugees?

The latter.

And thank you. That was my point.

[redwill]

You cannot compare it in that sense. First of all it would be a logistical nightmare to bring in tens of thousands of refugees, and cost a whole lot more than just sending aid for those countries to take care of them. Which we are doing. Yes they are harboring the refugees, but I would guess we are the ones paying for almost all their supplies.

Dammit, man.

Think of the "logistical" nightmare Jordan, Turkey, and frickin' Lebanon gotta go through. They haven't had much choice, but they've been doing it.

Give them some respect. More respect than we deserve just throwing some $$$ at the problem and never having to actually deal with it.

[Grunthy]

I am not arguing that they aren't doing anything, but you're acting like the U.S. does **** ing nothing. It really is tiresome.

[Avyran]

redwill, are you arguing that the US should be taking in all of these refugees? Or just that it is unfair to be pointing fingers at the surrounding countries, when they are already doing a lot to support these refugees?

The latter.

And thank you. That was my point.

Got it. Realized I was making points that likely weren't even addressing what you were talking about... so I figured I'd clarify.

I can understand what you mean.

[Tico Rick]

I'm well aware of our own checkered past, but it bears zero relevance to the current situation. It's not because they are "brown", it's because of their religion and belief system. I don't know too many Jews in the 30s that were practicing or endorsing jihad.

American citizens are the most generous population on Earth,in terms of international giving and stewardship. I'm not going to feel guilt over the sins of our ancestors

I may be missing something, shad, but you seem to be painting all Muslims with the same broad brush - that they are all either practicing terrorists or at least sympathetic to the terrorist cause. I think there are a lot of Muslims out there who share western values but are afraid to speak up because of the vocal and bloodthirsty minority, or are just too busy trying to survive.

This may sound whacko, but I believe one thing that has made the U.S. so great is the influx and intermixing of people and ideas from all over, people who want to be here and who have a lot to contribute. Crazy idea, I know.

This goes back to the Ben Affleck appearance on 'Real Time', when Bill Maher and Sam Harris were trying to explain that the views that the extremist groups hold dear aren't necessarily all that extreme in relation to the broader population of Muslims around the world. For example, just looking at younger Muslims (I think the age range was like 14-24 or thereabouts) living in Britain, nearly 40% of them believe apostates deserve death. 0% of them believe homosexuality is okay. (Zero-point-zero) Over 3/4 of them believed the Danish cartoonist should be prosecuted from drawing an image of Allah. (These polls were obviously conducted pre-Charlie Hebdo)

These are British Muslims, born and raised in the West.

The point is that we always take for granted that there is this magical 'moderate Muslim' out there who represents a huge chunk of the Islamic population of the world. But the more we learn about Islamic practices around the world, the more rare this moderate person becomes. Where you and I probably once thought that ISIL and their ilk represented a token fraction of a percentage of the world's Muslims, the reality that is coming to light is that they actually represent something closer to a 50-50 split when it comes to the beliefs espoused. Where the differences lie is in what people are willing to do to carry out their beliefs. But because great swaths of populations have a tip-the-hat relationship to the extremist wackos, those wackos are able to exist and even proliferate.

And your source for the 50-50 split statistic is?

I'd like to know the sample size of the UK survey you reference. I suspect that if you conduct a poll in the UK, or in France, or in Germany, quite a lot of muslims living in these countries are going to express views we might consider radical. If you were a disenfranchised 14-24 year-old minority living in a ghetto in one of these countries, wouldn't you think, aha, a survey taker, I'm going to shake these wankers up with my views! But saying these things in a survey is not necessarily the same as firmly believing them, much less actually acting upon them. If it were possible to take an accurate, worldwide poll of Muslims, I highly doubt those who believe in jihad, that infidels should killed, etc. would even make it to double digits. If you have surveys that show otherwise, please share.

[Tomas]

I'm well aware of our own checkered past, but it bears zero relevance to the current situation. It's not because they are "brown", it's because of their religion and belief system. I don't know too many Jews in the 30s that were practicing or endorsing jihad.

American citizens are the most generous population on Earth,in terms of international giving and stewardship. I'm not going to feel guilt over the sins of our ancestors

I may be missing something, shad, but you seem to be painting all Muslims with the same broad brush - that they are all either practicing terrorists or at least sympathetic to the terrorist cause. I think there are a lot of Muslims out there who share western values but are afraid to speak up because of the vocal and bloodthirsty minority, or are just too busy trying to survive.

This may sound whacko, but I believe one thing that has made the U.S. so great is the influx and intermixing of people and ideas from all over, people who want to be here and who have a lot to contribute. Crazy idea, I know.

This goes back to the Ben Affleck appearance on 'Real Time', when Bill Maher and Sam Harris were trying to explain that the views that the extremist groups hold dear aren't necessarily all that extreme in relation to the broader population of Muslims around the world. For example, just looking at younger Muslims (I think the age range was like 14-24 or thereabouts) living in Britain, nearly 40% of them believe apostates deserve death. 0% of them believe homosexuality is okay. (Zero-point-zero) Over 3/4 of them believed the Danish cartoonist should be prosecuted from drawing an image of Allah. (These polls were obviously conducted pre-Charlie Hebdo)

These are British Muslims, born and raised in the West.

The point is that we always take for granted that there is this magical 'moderate Muslim' out there who represents a huge chunk of the Islamic population of the world. But the more we learn about Islamic practices around the world, the more rare this moderate person becomes. Where you and I probably once thought that ISIL and their ilk represented a token fraction of a percentage of the world's Muslims, the reality that is coming to light is that they actually represent something closer to a 50-50 split when it comes to the beliefs espoused. Where the differences lie is in what people are willing to do to carry out their beliefs. But because great swaths of populations have a tip-the-hat relationship to the extremist wackos, those wackos are able to exist and even proliferate.

And for every poll, there is a counter-poll

If your son/daughter came out as gay, would you accept them ?
YES NO
1487 24
98% 2%

https://britishbornmuslims.wordpress.co ... slim-poll/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And quoting from YouGov:



http://freethoughtblogs.com/godlessness ... -violence/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

Everyone get ready for shaf to pull out the "religion of peace" website

[Avyran]

That "Not very much respect" from non-Muslim British females for homosexuals. Weird.

[Tomas]

That "Not very much respect" from non-Muslim British females for homosexuals. Weird.

My personal guess - a typo (flipping the 1 vs. 80 cells)

[ulf]

I'd be curious to see how many people fleeing Syria wanted to come to USA and were rejected