ISIS Crisis

[shafnutz05]

Everyone get ready for shaf to pull out the "religion of peace" website

Another productive contribution, lol.

Tico, tif has posted a study in here before of Muslims in the UK, I'm on my phone so you will have to wait a bit :)

[Tico Rick]

I'd appreciate that, shad. Sorry I missed it earlier... I've only been perusing NHR sporadically of late.

[shafnutz05]

Here is tif's post from the other thread...I don't have the actual website but you can rest assured he wouldn't have posted it without a poll to cite:

A third of British Muslims believe apostates deserve the death penalty. 2/3 of them support punishment for people who openly criticize or mock Islam. A third of them are Holocaust deniers. 40% of them favor sharia in the UK.

These are 'Western' Muslims. And it is this soft support for such ends that creates the environment where the whack-a-doodles at the fringes can employ violent means to bring them about.

Obviously I recognize that a smaller percentage of these people would actually commit a terror attack, but there is no question that the likelihood of someone that says "Yes" to all of those things being further radicalized (more than they already are) is much higher as well. The problem is, many of the "peace-loving Muslims" we constantly hear about *still* believe the above things. They may be "peace-loving", but they are still dangerously radical. And "peace-loving" doesn't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive with believing in religious law, being a Holocaust denier, etc.

[PensFanInDC]

Informative Chart

I do think it is interesting that 46% of male muslim students have not very much respect, no respect at all, or are "not sure" about homosexuals. That's a really high number I think especially when compared to the 5% of non-muslim male students.

[Tomas]

Here is tif's post from the other thread...I don't have the actual website but you can rest assured he wouldn't have posted it without a poll to cite:

A third of British Muslims believe apostates deserve the death penalty. 2/3 of them support punishment for people who openly criticize or mock Islam. A third of them are Holocaust deniers. 40% of them favor sharia in the UK.

These are 'Western' Muslims. And it is this soft support for such ends that creates the environment where the whack-a-doodles at the fringes can employ violent means to bring them about.

Obviously I recognize that a smaller percentage of these people would actually commit a terror attack, but there is no question that the likelihood of someone that says "Yes" to all of those things being further radicalized (more than they already are) is much higher as well. The problem is, many of the "peace-loving Muslims" we constantly hear about *still* believe the above things. They may be "peace-loving", but they are still dangerously radical. And "peace-loving" doesn't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive with believing in religious law, being a Holocaust denier, etc.

Of course, next time we use Tif's survey to argue that Muslims are "dangerously radical", I'd like to simply add - but then there was that different dude who posted another set of BS polls (with links and a bunch of tables) that showed exactly the opposite - majority of Muslims respect Jewish people, gays....

[Tomas]

Informative Chart

I do think it is interesting that 46% of male muslim students have not very much respect, no respect at all, or are "not sure" about homosexuals. That's a really high number I think especially when compared to the 5% of non-muslim male students.

I generally don't like socio-polls (I believe you can get pretty much any answer you want based on the wording of the questions, their order, etc.). But , a few years back I ran into results of a study that tracked the changes in attitudes toward gays over time by asking the same set of questions, in all the US states. (Whereas I live in arguably the most liberal part of my state, I have always been curious about how different the rest of the state is.) Maybe not surprisingly, the study showed that among younger population, majority of men and women support gay rights. However, for most of the southern and/or "traditional Red" states that's still not the case among middle-age and especially older segments. And even among the young people, the support side started winning relatively recently (only in the last decade).

And, I take the "not sure" answers as "glass half full."

[PensFanInDC]

See I take "not sure" to be "I don't want to admit I don't like them". How would a "not sure" answer look on an american student poll? I mean, in America you can't be not sure about it. You have to be either okay with it or not okay with it....right?

[MWB]

In some cases, the world would be better if more people could say they're "not sure" about things. Hopefully they then decide to investigate what their not sure about to come to an informed conclusion. Some of the people who are "sure" about things are sure out of ignorance.

[shafnutz05]

lol wait a second, I just noticed where Tomas pulled this "data" from. Let me be the first to say I am extraordinarily skeptical of this data. First off, this was the only post ever made on a freaking WORDPRESS BLOG (lol) entitled "British-Born Muslims", and it was conducted by a couple of random people (allegedly) just out on the street. Second, there doesn't appear to be any additional citation for the data they are claiming. I have never heard of an organization called "British Born Muslims", so maybe I am just missing something.

Third, I am legitimately skeptical of some of the results, I've picked a few:

Should white (non-Muslim) people worry about unintentionally offending Muslim people?

Yes - 1502, No - 0

Do you believe the Quran justifies suicide bombings or terrorism against innocent people?

Yes - 3, No - 1508

Do you support Osama Bin Laden and his war with the west ?

Yes - 3, No - 1508

I mean....come on. Even accepting that there are majorities of people that would likely respond the same way to these questions, the absurdly lopsided nature of the results has to raise a few eyebrows, especially because it absolutely flies in the face of nearly every other study done out there by actual polling companies. You mean to tell me 1,500 Muslims ALL agreed that we shouldn't worry about offending their religion? Come on Tomas, you are better than believing that tripe. You couldn't find 1,500 consecutive people of ANY religion that would say that.

Meanwhile, the poll tif an I are citing was conducted by ICM Research, which is one of the largest and most respected public polling companies in the United Kingdom. But if we are going to hold an uncited poll on some random Wordpress Blog, that clearly has an agenda from five years ago with some questionable results to be anywhere near equal standing with a large public opinion research company...well, ok then.

[Gaucho]

In some cases, the world would be better if more people could say they're "not sure" about things. Hopefully they then decide to investigate what their not sure about to come to an informed conclusion. Some of the people who are "sure" about things are sure out of ignorance.

:thumb:

[Tomas]

lol wait a second, I just noticed where Tomas pulled this "data" from. Let me be the first to say I am extraordinarily skeptical of this data. First off, this was the only post ever made on a freaking WORDPRESS BLOG (lol) entitled "British-Born Muslims", and it was conducted by a couple of random people (allegedly) just out on the street. Second, there doesn't appear to be any additional citation for the data they are claiming. I have never heard of an organization called "British Born Muslims", so maybe I am just missing something.

Third, I am legitimately skeptical of some of the results, I've picked a few:

Should white (non-Muslim) people worry about unintentionally offending Muslim people?

Yes - 1502, No - 0

Do you believe the Quran justifies suicide bombings or terrorism against innocent people?

Yes - 3, No - 1508

Do you support Osama Bin Laden and his war with the west ?

Yes - 3, No - 1508

I mean....come on. Even accepting that there are majorities of people that would likely respond the same way to these questions, the absurdly lopsided nature of the results has to raise a few eyebrows, especially because it absolutely flies in the face of nearly every other study done out there by actual polling companies. You mean to tell me 1,500 Muslims ALL agreed that we shouldn't worry about offending their religion? Come on Tomas, you are better than believing that tripe. You couldn't find 1,500 consecutive people of ANY religion that would say that.

Meanwhile, the poll tif an I are citing was conducted by ICM Research, which is one of the largest and most respected public polling companies in the United Kingdom. But if we are going to hold an uncited poll on some random Wordpress Blog, that clearly has an agenda from five years ago with some questionable results to be anywhere near equal standing with a large public opinion research company...well, ok then.

So YouGov (the author of the second, much larger study) is a bunch of nobodies... well, ok then .

[shafnutz05]

The YouGov study targets Islamic students. Students, as I'm sure you know, tend to be much more liberal and open-minded in their way of thinking than someone in the general population. I think a poll that actually surveys all Muslim citizens in England is a lot more representative of the general sentiment of the British community.

If I were wanting to cite a survey that makes British Muslims look as tolerant and moderate as possible, the first place I would look is university polls.

[PensFanInDC]

In some cases, the world would be better if more people could say they're "not sure" about things. Hopefully they then decide to investigate what their not sure about to come to an informed conclusion. Some of the people who are "sure" about things are sure out of ignorance.

But only if it sides with the "good" side, right? Cause being not sure and then deciding they are against it is wrong, correct? I was also specifically citing the topic of homosexuality. I don't believe there is any significant portion of the population that is "not sure" about their views on homosexuality. Someone once told me here that telling someone I love them and "dodging" the "do you think homosexuality is a sin" question was an insult to gays. Why would being "not sure" be different?

[Tico Rick]

So you're skeptical of the "different dude" who actually posts his source, but take at face value tif's data because "you can rest assured he wouldn't have posted it without a poll to cite"?

[MWB]

In some cases, the world would be better if more people could say they're "not sure" about things. Hopefully they then decide to investigate what their not sure about to come to an informed conclusion. Some of the people who are "sure" about things are sure out of ignorance.

But only if it sides with the "good" side, right? Cause being not sure and then deciding they are against it is wrong, correct? I was also specifically citing the topic of homosexuality. I don't believe there is any significant portion of the population that is "not sure" about their views on homosexuality. Someone once told me here that telling someone I love them and "dodging" the "do you think homosexuality is a sin" question was an insult to gays. Why would being "not sure" be different?

No, it's not about the "good" side or "bad" side, and it's kind of presumptuous to assume that. It's about coming to an informed opinion. If someone says, "you know, I'm really not sure where I am on homosexuality. My religion seems to say it is immoral, but I struggle with that idea. Maybe it isn't immoral..." or "I think homosexuality is fine, live and let live. But my religion is against it. Which is more important to me?" I have a lot of respect for that person. For someone who can examine their own ideas and possibly change opinions. And I think there are lots of people who are like that, on that issue specifically.

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

So you're skeptical of the "different dude" who actually posts his source, but take at face value tif's data because "you can rest assured he wouldn't have posted it without a poll to cite"?

But the data doesn't agree with his world view so therefore it's wrong


and as per the Gallup poll, the 0% love for homosexuality by British muslims is alarming but there is also a strong sentiment that violence is very unjustified by the same demographic, so it's not like they're supporting the radical muslims.

[Tico Rick]

I generally don't like socio-polls (I believe you can get pretty much any answer you want based on the wording of the questions, their order, etc.). But , a few years back I ran into results of a study that tracked the changes in attitudes toward gays over time by asking the same set of questions, in all the US states. (Whereas I live in arguably the most liberal part of my state, I have always been curious about how different the rest of the state is.) Maybe not surprisingly, the study showed that among younger population, majority of men and women support gay rights. However, for most of the southern and/or "traditional Red" states that's still not the case among middle-age and especially older segments. And even among the young people, the support side started winning relatively recently (only in the last decade).

Tomas, you may be interested in this enlightening scientific study on the topic:
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/oe925 ... y-standing

[shafnutz05]

So you're skeptical of the "different dude" who actually posts his source, but take at face value tif's data because "you can rest assured he wouldn't have posted it without a poll to cite"?

But the data doesn't agree with his world view so therefore it's wrong.

lol...what in the world are you ranting about? I don't doubt the veracity of the YouGov poll at all...but again.

We are discussing the views of Muslims living in the United Kingdom. We good? OK. I am going to name three polls

1) That Wordpress "poll" which isn't even worth bothering to mention. If you think this is in any way a reliable source of data, I'll go create a website on Blogspot and make my own data.

2) The YouGov poll targeting students. I don't doubt the veracity of this poll, but Muslim students in the UK (especially at uni) are a relatively small subset of the demographic "British Muslims". The relative moderation of this subset is certainly encouraging, but hardly justification regarding the largest population et al.

3) An ICD Poll, targeting all British Muslims, with simple Yes or No questions on things like Sharia, punishing apostates, etc. I take this data at face value because this isn't frigging Rasmussen Reports, it's a safely bipartisan polling source in the United Kingdom, that actually targets the audience we are discussing.

If you put any credence in the ridiculous results from #1, ok.jpeg. And MIMH, when you have a poll that 100% of British Muslims have zero tolerance of homosexuality, do you not understand how alarming that is? As that population grows, so does that sentiment.

I don't know what else you keep trying to say, so I'll just continue to dismiss it.

[shafnutz05]

Another survey from 2006, this one cited by CBS News:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-britis ... lam-first/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Forty-five percent say 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments. This figure is more than twice as high as those who say it was not a conspiracy. Tragically, almost one in four British Muslims believe that last year's 7/7 attacks on London were justified because of British support for the U.S.-led war on terror.

When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" only one in four say it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, "Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws."

Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.

The news is no less alarming on the question of freedom of speech. Seventy-eight percent support punishment for the people who earlier this year published cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed. Sixty-eight percent support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who "insult Islam." When asked if free speech should be protected, even if it offends religious groups, 62 percent of British Muslims say No, it should not.

Also concerning freedom of speech, as the NOP Research survey reports, "hardcore Islamists" constitute nine percent of the British Muslim population. A slightly more moderate group is composed of "staunch defenders of Islam." This second group comprises 29 percent of the British Muslim population. Individuals in this group aggressively defend their religion from internal and external threats, real or imagined.

The scary reality is that only three percent of British Muslims "took a consistently pro-freedom of speech line on these questions."

In reality, any attempt to try and portray British Muslims as a largely tolerant and secular group, by any stretch of the imagination, is a bizarre attempt to whistle past the graveyard. Thankfully, these numbers are far greater than if you were to conduct a similar poll stateside.

[Tico Rick]

While that is alarming, don't you think that poll says more about the state of race relations in the UK than about anything inherent in Islam?

[shafnutz05]

that poll says more about the state of race relations in the UK than about anything inherent in Islam?

If that's the way you want to interpret it, you are more than welcome to do that. But there is also precisely one religion that is committing the vast majority of the world's atrocities right now and over the last 25 years, including in Africa (Boko Haram, etc), southeast Asia (Khobar Towers, etc), the Middle East (ISIS, Beirut, etc), Europe (Charlie Hebdo, etc), the United States (9/11 and other more isolated attacks), Russia (slaughtering schoolchildren), the Olympic Games (Munich) and so on.

Our country has had a checkered past, other religions have had very checkered pasts...but over the last 15 years, the vast majority of the world's strife and atrocities can largely be attributed to adherent's of precisely one faith, no matter how "perverted" it is.

So I interpret that poll as a somewhat unsurprising (yet still disheartening) commentary at the prevalence of radicalism with the Islamic faith in the modern age. Wanting to implement a theocratic regime has little or nothing to do with race relations.

[Avyran]

Nah, it's more representative of a significant portion of Islam.

The belief that sharia should extend to non-Muslims is most widespread in the Middle East and North Africa, where at least four-in-ten Muslims in all countries except Iraq (38%) and Morocco (29%) hold this opinion. Egyptian Muslims (74%) are the most likely to say it should apply to Muslims and non-Muslims alike, while 58% in Jordan hold this view.

The amount of stats for this stuff is all over the place, but it shows that the more aggressive folks aren't just a loud but small "vocal minority."

I can link to more stuff if you guys'd like.

[shafnutz05]

Yes, there are numerous respected polling outfits that have documented this extremist nature. But, as the well-researched Weenie has already mentioned, they are all just conforming to my "world view"

[Tico Rick]

That Pew Report is very thorough, and really interesting. Thanks for sharing, Avyran. Among the extremist views it points out:
- most Muslims prefer democracy over a powerful leader;
- huge majorities of Muslims feel it's a good thing that non-Muslims are free to practice their faith;
- majorities in most Muslim countries are worried about religious extremism;
- in all Muslim countries the majority (and with few exceptions a very large majority) feel that suicide bombings are not justified.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -politics/

[shafnutz05]