ISIS Crisis

[DelPen]

That is the answer my wife likes and I too am starting to warm up to that idea. Trying to teach those in isis is probably a lost cause. Teaching their potential "subjects" on the power of equality, etc. could be an effective weapon. Show love and love will be shown back.

I'd hope that train of thought is also what was behind the "jobs" comment from the official. I don't think anyone's dumb enough to think, "Hey, these guys just burned 40 people alive. Let's give them jobs and everything will be a-okay!" I think the jobs comment was about making it less likely people will be recruited.

Weren't all the 9/11 hijackers well educated and could have had very good lives in America?

[LeopardLetang]

I don't think a jobs program or better economy is either a) within our ability to provide or b) the answer to the isis problem. I also don't think killing them is the answer either.

The Atlantic article I referenced above suggests certain policies based on what ISIS really is - a group of zealots who are following a particularly fundamentalist belief in Islam. Based on their beliefs, a jobs program won't work - unless you're talking about jobs provided by Christians who are willing to submit to ISIS and become their slaves. Killing them is really the best answer, though we (westerners, and the U.S. in particular) shouldn't be the ones doing the killing, as that is exactly what they want - an apopolyptic showdown that will herald the end of days. Part of the solution, according to the Atlantic article, is to take back the territory that ISIS now controls, for without territory there can be no caliphate, and with no caliphate Muslims will not feel compelled to give up their current lives to join the fight. This is all according to their reading of the Koran.

That article was excellently informative to me. Until now I've managed to avoid learning much about isis. But that article has laid a solid foundation. I've been filtering through the responses for a convincing rebuke. But so far I'm left believing what it says pretty concretely

[shafnutz05]

Just read this lengthy, and enlightening, article about ISIS. I encourage everyone to read it. It's good to know your enemy:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/arc ... =SFTwitter

Thanks for posting. Absolutely outstanding piece of journalism from The Atlantic, including the sit-down with Choudary and his friends. I like to think I follow this pretty closely, but this was an eye-opener even for me (and according to tif's statistics, I am probably the biggest speaker on this movement on the board )

[dodint]

I haven't read up much on ISIS either, maybe I'll start with the article. I think I don't care because before ISIS it was Al Qaeda, and Hezbollah, and the Taliban, and the Russians. This country has a long paranoia of constantly having to fear some foreign entity and I think I'm finally desensitized to it. ISIS, so what?

[shafnutz05]

I haven't read up much on ISIS either, maybe I'll start with the article. I think I don't care because before ISIS it was Al Qaeda, and Hezbollah, and the Taliban, and the Russians. This country has a long paranoia of constantly having to fear some foreign entity and I think I'm finally desensitized to it. ISIS, so what?

Fair points, but I think ISIS is notably different. al-Qaeda never really had a defined strategy as far as taking over large portions of territory. As the article points out, ISIS now controls an amount of land area that is larger than Great Britain. That is pretty damned insane. Mind you, it's not one solid chunk of land, but it stretches in chunks from Libya to Syria to Iraq. With al-Qaeda, it always felt like they were content to inflict occasional pain on Western nations, but they mainly kept to that mission. With ISIS, they are completely taking over territory, establishing their own version of a "caliphate", and slaughtering anyone who disagrees with them, including their fellow Muslims.

As far as a direct threat to the U.S.? No, not yet. However, I would submit ISIS is most certainly a direct threat to European interests, including Turkey.

[dodint]

Oh, I believe you. I'm just burned out on it. A selfish apathetic stance to take. Maybe actually meeting members of the Taliban changed me somehow. Not in a sympathetic way, but the ones dumb enough to get caught were just angry illiterate dirt farmers. You almost feel bad for them. If I wasn't planning on living in Germany in the next 10 years I might actually put on blinders and actively tune everything out.

I'll get dialed in a bit. That article sounds good.

[columbia]

ISIS Burns 8000 Rare Books and Manuscripts in Mosul -
See more at: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/02/2 ... g3V0N.dpuf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[newarenanow]

They also captured like 80 Christians and god knows what they are going to do to them.

[tifosi77]

That is the answer my wife likes and I too am starting to warm up to that idea. Trying to teach those in isis is probably a lost cause. Teaching their potential "subjects" on the power of equality, etc. could be an effective weapon. Show love and love will be shown back.

I'd hope that train of thought is also what was behind the "jobs" comment from the official. I don't think anyone's dumb enough to think, "Hey, these guys just burned 40 people alive. Let's give them jobs and everything will be a-okay!" I think the jobs comment was about making it less likely people will be recruited.

Weren't all the 9/11 hijackers well educated and could have had very good lives in America?

They represent a very small subset of the terrorist genre. To borrow dodint's vernacular, the majority of them are just 'angry illiterate dirt farmers'. It takes a special kind of loopy to agree to immolate yourself in the name of your god, and that sort of zeal often has a way of dwindling with education.

[The U]

Anybody read up on the recent discussion that the burning of the Jordanian pilot and the decapitation of the Egyptians on the beach in Libya were fake?

The victims were killed, but the manner in which they died seems to be up for debate. CGI, green screens, editing, etc....very strange. If this is true it really drives home the point that PR/Marketing/Recruiting is incredibly important to them. So vital that the victims had to be killed before/after the videos were shot in order to completely control the message.

One example/source:

http://www.thomaswictor.com/the-jordani ... ned-alive/

[shmenguin]

Anybody read up on the recent discussion that the burning of the Jordanian pilot and the decapitation of the Egyptians on the beach in Libya were fake?

The victims were killed, but the manner in which they died seems to be up for debate. CGI, green screens, editing, etc....very strange. If this is true it really drives home the point that PR/Marketing/Recruiting is incredibly important to them. So vital that the victims had to be killed before/after the videos were shot in order to completely control the message.

One example/source:

http://www.thomaswictor.com/the-jordani ... ned-alive/

i really hope that's true.

[tifosi77]

This is interesting, not just on its own merits, but in the wake the rumors surrounding the death of the American girl a few weeks ago. ISIL claimed she died during a U.S. bombing mission, but did not initially provide any proof of her death. I think it was several days before she was confirmed dead, altho as I recall the confirmation seemed to make it clear she likely did not die from injuries sustained in an air strike.

[tifosi77]

I confess, I never watched the video..... but if those are actual screen grabs, then it's pretty terrible, and I can't believe no one has said anything before this.

[dodint]

To borrow dodint's vernacular, the majority of them are just 'angry illiterate dirt farmers'. It takes a special kind of loopy to agree to immolate yourself in the name of your god, and that sort of zeal often has a way of dwindling with education.

I want to be really clear to all that I wrote that in a sympathetic tone. They're angry because their country is ravaged from the inside and out. Illiteracy is the biggest problem, they have the Koran read/interpreted to them by Imams that likely don't have their best interest in mind. And the part of Afghanistan that I lived in was barren desert and they clung to the banks of the Helmand River and farmed the best they could. It's less loopy and more pure ignorance crafted by a culture stacked against them from the start. The non-Taliban that we had in detention because they were recovering from wounds we gave them by accident were actually really kind, humble individuals that just wanted to go home.

[shmenguin]

I didn't exactly have expectations of what someone being burned alive looked like, but still...in the video his movements did seem a little...unnatural? This makes a lot of sense. Plus the audio seemed dubbed.

What to make of it though? On one hand, yes - a burning person isn't going to give them the choreography they wanted. But could it be that they want to seem more hard core than they are? Don't know what the motive would be for that though, other than something abstract.

[tifosi77]

Again, having not seen the video, it seems that they sort of wanted the pilot to 'perform' and in a very scripted way. You wouldn't get that from a scared man who's actually burning to death. I think there's nothing more to it than that.

Heck, I've gotten hot cooking oil on my arm and the reaction is pretty immediate...!

[tifosi77]

To borrow dodint's vernacular, the majority of them are just 'angry illiterate dirt farmers'. It takes a special kind of loopy to agree to immolate yourself in the name of your god, and that sort of zeal often has a way of dwindling with education.

I want to be really clear to all that I wrote that in a sympathetic tone. They're angry because their country is ravaged from the inside and out. Illiteracy is the biggest problem, they have the Koran read/interpreted to them by Imams that likely don't have their best interest in mind. And the part of Afghanistan that I lived in was barren desert and they clung to the banks of the Helmand River and farmed the best they could. It's less loopy and more pure ignorance crafted by a culture stacked against them from the start. The non-Taliban that we had in detention because they were recovering from wounds we gave them by accident were actually really kind, humble individuals that just wanted to go home.

That's how I interpreted it; you more or less said you felt bad for them. But what you said and what I said are not mutually exclusive.

[dodint]

I know. Just didn't want to sound ig'nant.

[Grunthy]

I am tired of hearing about all the people that are joining ISIS from western countries, and if captured, holding them trying to "re-educate." As far as I am concerned, you committed treason and it is punishable by death whether you are captured coming back or going in.

[Gaucho]

Only in Vermont.

[count2infinity]

that sounds too close to "kill all apostates" from Islam for my liking.

[Grunthy]

Treason is too close to "kill all apostates"?

[count2infinity]

Put anyone that joins the enemy to death...

[Idoit40fans]

If the enemy is the Cleveland Browns, then sure I understand your sentiment. When the enemy is a terrorist organization...yes.

[Grunthy]

Put anyone that joins the enemy to death...

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

So, joining the enemy of your country is treason, which can be punishable by death...