The Sullivan Problem

[Daniel]

How short is the leash and warm is the seat already?

Honestly it'll be bad enough when the fans stop coming. It's been almost a decade since this team was relevant and Sullivan is still here. Teams that expect to win in the playoffs don't keep a coach that doesn't win in the playoffs. The fact the Penguins are keeping a coach this mediocre tells me he likely won't be fired soon and the cup isn't the goal revenue is (I'm really hoping this doesn't age well).

[largegarlic]

My charitable take on Sullivan's seeming ironclad job security is that the owners and GM know that this roster is done regardless of who the coach is. And they think Sullivan is generally a good coach and might especially be good for a rebuild where he'll have (hopefully) lots of young, hungry, high-energy guys who can play the way he wants to play, even if there not as skilled as the older guys who will be phasing out. So, they're willing to play out the string with Sullivan and the big 3, letting them hit some milestones and have some post-game hugs, all while putting the pieces in place to rebuild with a new young core in 2-3 years. That's what I think Dubas means when he says that if he didn't have Sullivan, he'd be looking to hire a Sullivan.

But I think it's also totally fair to have a more cynical read of things.

[KG]

My charitable take on Sullivan's seeming ironclad job security is that the owners and GM know that this roster is done regardless of who the coach is. And they think Sullivan is generally a good coach and might especially be good for a rebuild where he'll have (hopefully) lots of young, hungry, high-energy guys who can play the way he wants to play, even if there not as skilled as the older guys who will be phasing out. So, they're willing to play out the string with Sullivan and the big 3, letting them hit some milestones and have some post-game hugs, all while putting the pieces in place to rebuild with a new young core in 2-3 years. That's what I think Dubas means when he says that if he didn't have Sullivan, he'd be looking to hire a Sullivan.

But I think it's also totally fair to have a more cynical read of things.

I hear you and I think you're probably right. They know the team isn't a contender, however coaches on bad teams get fired all the time, especially when the team is seen as underachieving. To me it's not that they're losing, it's how they're losing. Giving up the most high danger chances in the league to me says the team clearly doesn't care about defending and playing with structure.

In other words, they have tuned the coach out. Time to change it up!

[Daniel]

My charitable take on Sullivan's seeming ironclad job security is that the owners and GM know that this roster is done regardless of who the coach is. And they think Sullivan is generally a good coach and might especially be good for a rebuild where he'll have (hopefully) lots of young, hungry, high-energy guys who can play the way he wants to play, even if there not as skilled as the older guys who will be phasing out. So, they're willing to play out the string with Sullivan and the big 3, letting them hit some milestones and have some post-game hugs, all while putting the pieces in place to rebuild with a new young core in 2-3 years. That's what I think Dubas means when he says that if he didn't have Sullivan, he'd be looking to hire a Sullivan.

But I think it's also totally fair to have a more cynical read of things.

I think if that was the case Dubas wouldn't have made the offseason moves he did. Why not see what you have in terms of prospects rather than rebuild the bottom 6 with scrubs? Why not play Puustinen, McGroarty, Imama, Poulin, Avery Hayes, Pickering, Aho, etc. and trade Rust and Rakell?

Dubas seemed to make offseason moves with this year in mind and make a run for the playoffs.

[DelPen]

Looking back at coaching failures, the last coach to get into a third season after missing the playoffs two years in a row was Bob Berry. Edzo fired half way into his 2nd (lockout was in between 1st and 3rd years) and Kehoe only made it two seasons. And those teams sucked. A bunch of other guys before Badger too were here for a couple years on bad teams.

Everyone else were playoff regulars since 1990 and when playoff success struggled they were gone, Sullivan hasn’t done anything well since 2017 and things have progressively gotten worse. He needs to go ASAP.

[KG]

I look forward to the day that I wake up to see that Sully has been relieved of his duties.

Guess I shouldn’t hold my breath.

[ahawk9]

I've said before and I still believe that this roster is much better than last year's, and this team should at least be a bubble playoff team. That said, I see a complete systematic failure going on, a reluctance to change anything to suit the players they have. This is a nearly 10-year-old system shoved onto a team that is five years past this particular system.

I really think that a new coach, just as a fresh perspective/voice, would give this team a goose that could get it back to that bubble area. Maybe that's not ideal in and of itself because I'd rather have a top 5 pick next year than a 4-game lambasting by the Rangers in round 1 but I'd also probably enjoy watching a helluva a lot more than I do now. I watched last night more because I was mesmerized by Edmonton - it looked like a Pens-Blue Jackets game from about 8 years ago when it was tangible how much better the Pens were than CBJ - and all those shots and how in the zone Blomqvist was. The offense gave Skinner an easy shutout, minus one or two nice chances.

We have nearly all belabored the point that you can't fire all the players, so the easiest and first thing to do is fire the coach. Once a new voice has time to implement changes you can better gage personnel.

[Fast B]

I try not to be totally reactionary and always default to "fire the coach", but man, this team stinks. It looks like we're reliving the Mike Johnston era, and when you've drained the life out of even Sid, it's time to pack your bags. Thanks for the Cups, Mike, and so long.

[maopens]

Maybe send Sullivan down to WBS on a conditioning assignment too?

[Ohio_Pens_fan]

Unless the pens go on an outrageous winning streak, IMO they have to replace Sullivan. Given that, who is out there to replace him? Would they consider Quenneville? Anyone…anyone?

[100565]

We have nearly all belabored the point that you can't fire all the players, so the easiest and first thing to do is fire the coach.

But they kinda have. Since 22-23 only Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Rakell, Rust, Pettersson, and O’Connor have played a game this year. So the core plus 4.

Changed GM

Changed some important assistants.

The core is not going anywhere, Sully is the only remaining change.

Fire Sully. It’s time.

[Puck-Lurker]

We have nearly all belabored the point that you can't fire all the players, so the easiest and first thing to do is fire the coach.

But they kinda have. Since 22-23 only Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Rakell, Rust, Pettersson, and O’Connor have played a game this year. So the core plus 4.

Changed GM

Changed some important assistants.

The core is not going anywhere, Sully is the only remaining change.

Fire Sully. It’s time.

If you've tried everything else.. everything under the bleeping sun.. only one more thing to change.

[Wyopen]

I’m beginning to think this team is nothing but one big mess! Coaching, offense, defense, goaltending (except Blomqvist). It’s hard for me to believe that the whole team can fall apart as one.

[KBone]

Unless the pens go on an outrageous winning streak, IMO they have to replace Sullivan. Given that, who is out there to replace him? Would they consider Quenneville? Anyone…anyone?

I'll say this every time I see Q mentioned. I'd rather go 0-82 with Sullivan than bring Quenneville on board.

[KG]

I don't expect anything to happen with Sullivan. The fact that they decided to not change the coach to try and save last season, before dealing Sid's best line mate should tell us that Sully walks on water here to FSG.

That was my big issue with the Jake situation. You should only trade him if you tried everything, starting with a coaching change.

[Pens4Life]

Gallant, Woodcraft, McLellan and Hakstol are most known free former NHL coaches... dont know who would fit this team best among those guys!?

[DelPen]

Gallant, Woodcraft, McLellan and Hakstol are most known free former NHL coaches... dont know who would fit this team best among those guys!?

Gallant would be good for the next few seasons while Sid is still under contract, he gets results quick but then his shelf life expires. He would get the most out of this team in the very short term and then you can part ways when the true rebuild starts.

[Daniel]

Gallant, Woodcraft, McLellan and Hakstol are most known free former NHL coaches... dont know who would fit this team best among those guys!?

Gallant would be good for the next few seasons while Sid is still under contract, he gets results quick but then his shelf life expires. He would get the most out of this team in the very short term and then you can part ways when the true rebuild starts.

Jacques Lemaire. Go 1990s boring trap. That’s about the speed this team can handle.

[Dynasty1970]

I'm happy to see so many people joining me in the "Sullivan is not a good coach and he needs to be gone" section. Been kind of lonely being there for the last 5 plus years.

Add me to the list.

I have been there along side ya!
FIRE SULLIVAN NOW!!!!!

[E-Ramone]

My charitable take on Sullivan's seeming ironclad job security is that the owners and GM know that this roster is done regardless of who the coach is. And they think Sullivan is generally a good coach and might especially be good for a rebuild where he'll have (hopefully) lots of young, hungry, high-energy guys who can play the way he wants to play, even if there not as skilled as the older guys who will be phasing out. So, they're willing to play out the string with Sullivan and the big 3, letting them hit some milestones and have some post-game hugs, all while putting the pieces in place to rebuild with a new young core in 2-3 years. That's what I think Dubas means when he says that if he didn't have Sullivan, he'd be looking to hire a Sullivan.

But I think it's also totally fair to have a more cynical read of things.

I agree with your take on things almost completely. I came to this thread with the same sentiments. I’d only add that when Sid finally signed his extension, I think that really cemented that Sullivan is here for at least as long as he is. Seems also that FSG might see him as a great fit for a post-Crosby, Malkin, Letang Penguins team too, so I guess we’re stuck with him for the foreseeable future.

[FLPensFan]

My charitable take on Sullivan's seeming ironclad job security is that the owners and GM know that this roster is done regardless of who the coach is. And they think Sullivan is generally a good coach and might especially be good for a rebuild where he'll have (hopefully) lots of young, hungry, high-energy guys who can play the way he wants to play, even if there not as skilled as the older guys who will be phasing out. So, they're willing to play out the string with Sullivan and the big 3, letting them hit some milestones and have some post-game hugs, all while putting the pieces in place to rebuild with a new young core in 2-3 years. That's what I think Dubas means when he says that if he didn't have Sullivan, he'd be looking to hire a Sullivan.

But I think it's also totally fair to have a more cynical read of things.

My only counter to that would be...yes, this team may not be very good. But, they are getting manhandled every night, with no signs of improvement. It's one thing to be competitive, it's another to look like an AHL level team playing against the NHL teams. There are just SO MANY THINGS going wrong without any improvement from game to game. High shots, poor defense, shaky goaltending, top guys not performing, shaky PP, more odd man rushes, low shots on goal for the team.

This isn't new to this season. This is year 3 of those same issues. I used to say the same thing, that maybe they think Sullivan is the right guy for the post-Crosby era. I'm not seeing anything to make me believe that is the case.

[Antonio]

I'm so sick of hearing Sullivan is a "good coach but". I genuinely want someone to explain to me what makes Sullivan a good coach and Bylsma not a good coach

[Daniel]

I'm so sick of hearing Sullivan is a "good coach but". I genuinely want someone to explain to me what makes Sullivan a good coach and Bylsma not a good coach

He was a good coach. Give credit where it’s due, he brought in a very good system and adapted as the game went on. Same with Bylsma. But now I’d say he’s comfortable in a position that doesn’t require success.

[Antonio]

Bylsma was out of the league pretty damn fast after winning a Stanley cup. Being competent enough to implement a system and having success doesn't mean you're a "good coach". Bylsma was so good that he had a better record regular season and playoffs than Sullivan yet his greatness was such that no one else wanted to hire him. Strange. What is the metric we keep using to call Sullivan "good"? He was ass in Boston... big surprise since he didn't have prime age generational talent.

[Daniel]

Bylsma was out of the league pretty damn fast after winning a Stanley cup. Being competent enough to implement a system and having success doesn't mean you're a "good coach". Bylsma was so good that he had a better record regular season and playoffs than Sullivan yet his greatness was such that no one else wanted to hire him. Strange. What is the metric we keep using to call Sullivan "good"? He was ass in Boston... big surprise since he didn't have prime age generational talent.

I would say being competent enough to implement a system then winning 8 straight playoff series is absolutely the definition of a good coach. Before Sullivan this team was weak and melted down whenever things got rough. They played tougher both mentally and physically and Sullivan was instrumental in that. If you don’t agree, I’d like to see what your criteria for being a good coach is. Just because he’s awful now doesn’t take away what he accomplished.

Bylsma quickly changed the culture and was able to implement a system mid season and was able to get this team where they needed to go. The team made the playoffs every year under Bylsma but the team melted down a lot and that was their undoing and eventually his. He was the coach 5 years after the cup win.

Two different styles that worked for a limited amount of time. I think both were very good head coaches but Bylsma lasted a little longer than the normal amount of time whereas Sullivan is more than 5 years past his experation date.